Neurotransmitters/Serotonoin IBD

My other thread is too big,also want to specifically go into excess serotonin.

First off,you can't make serotonin without tryptophan,and tryptophan only comes from diet.

Seems the best way to make serotonin is to combine protein with carbs,as in the typical eating style.

If excess serotonin is a IBD problem then food combining of carbs and protein is not good.

The sandwich or pizza or big turkey dinner sounds like a killer combo for IBD.

With protein alone the other amino acids compete,but with an insulin spike from carbs,serotonin can be made.  Another way to lower serotonin is low tryptophan foods.

But there is serotonin in foods also,not sure yet if it gets through digestion intact.

You cant make melatonin without serotnin,but it is in foods such as cherries.

The main question,is excess serotonin toxic in the gut.

Chicken or the egg problem.

Where this goes,nobody knows.

Old Mike

Anyhow here is some of what goes on in the gut.

http://www.nature.com/ctg/journal/v3/n4/full/ctg20128a.html

Foods that contain serotonin,have not finished reading yet.

High content foods,plantain,pineapple,banana,kiwi,plums,tomato.

Ok finished reading,interesting.

When you eat serotonin from food it is excreated in the urine as a metaboite 5-HIAA due to the monoamine oxidase in the gut. This may

confound the urinine analysis in the competative inhibition theory and make it bogus,not sure.  Anyhow just one dose of serotonin from food will not raise your platelet serotonin,but ingesting for 5 days pure serotonin will. So it seems it can build up,from eating a lot of high serotonin foods,besides conversion from tryptophan.

Where else can it build up.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/4/639.full.pdf

Melatonin stuff.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/05light.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

melatonin and UC

http://www.livar.net/uploadedfiles/article/melatoninandulcerativecolitis.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21893693

shift work increases prevalence,lighting at night

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378665/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12163849

http://pmj.bmj.com/content/81/960/667.full.pdf

http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/MelatoninandGIT.htm

melatonin might make UC worse.

 http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1596664141.html

and then again

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v98/n1/full/ajg200361a.html

Banana timeline looks like imports start around end of 19th century and really ramped around 1920.

Trying to make a connection to fruits and stuff that were not im the american diet prior to around 1920.

This of course may not make sense,since I would assume that lots of bananas are eaten where they come from

and the incidence of UC in hot regions is low,but we are not in a hot region.

http://www.unctad.info/upload/infocomm/docs/bananas/roleofdemand.pdf

antidepressants-no conclusions

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1599716/

I cant make a connection to ssri's and uc.

this one indicates good

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ibd.21846/abstract

seems they are antiinflamatory

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/846.full.pdf

gi bleeds ssri

http://www.naturalnews.com/024908.html

we also have super sert.

http://www.congress-online.com/ngm2012/guest/ID571e97067b0e4b/AbstractView?ABSid=529

plasticity in serotonin sert in the gut

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471489203001632

knockout mice

http://f1000.com/prime/3790976

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/17/2013 11:11:14 AM (GMT-6)

Seems to work fine for me try a few more times.

Try this link then click on top right link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2413754
OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/1/2013 11:00:42 AM (GMT-7)

Bananagirl: Hopefully you see this,an old post of yours.

Could you make more indepth comments on your experience with eating this many

bananas a day,I see you flared on this diet.

 I am trying to connect dots on high serotonin and UC.

Thanks

Old Mike

byebye and bootstrap, i started raw foodism back in 2009 because i heard it could help my allergies, rhinitis, and asthma. i had very bad allergies and was reliant on a lot of meds for it. once i started, i was able to get off all my meds. that was my main motivation. i then read a book called 80/10/10 about how fruitarians are like superhumans so i figured i'd try it out. i actually did well on the diet and was a beast- gained lots of muscle, awesome bloodwork, and started running cross country (was never able to run due to my asthma). i was even doing olympic powerlifting, swimming 3x a week, and teaching 3-4 fitness classes. as long as i ate enough (which was A LOT), i was able to get a perfect amount of protein from fruits (mainly bananas- they have a good amount) and greens for my body weight and all my nutrients. you are allowed nuts and seeds on the diet as well. the "30 bananas a diet" is just a gimmicky name for it but you definitely get a lot of variety.

i really had to work up to expanding my belly. i started with only being able to do 2 bananas and then just kept adding them. i have a vitamix blender and it can fit a lot of fruit. greens are very important on the diet. it was normal for me to eat 1 lb a day.

i'd say the suckiest things about the diet were:
1. nobody i knew ate like that so everyone was always calling me joanna banana
2. i did this diet in college so commuting with that much fruit weighed a lot
3. when there were only green bananas at the store!! ahh the horror!!
4. i could never go out to eat (but i don't really now anyways either)
5. oddly, i was constipated a lot and could not understand why

in the end, i had to stop the diet because i started to flare. i had been diagnosed with UC years before this diet, but it doesn't help to eat this much fiber when flaring. i ended up just going back to cooked vegan and now paleo. it's weird but i do miss eating that way. my fitness levels were insane and i did feel like a superhuman (besides the stupid constipation).

ahh found one of my old powerlifting pictures!!

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z152/joannabanana_02/?action=view&current=powerliftingclass.jpg

Joanna: Yes, your are almost a perfect case that fits this,of course you had prior UC.

It would be interesting to find someone who got first UC symptoms while on the diet.

From the above info,you can start to build up serotonin if you eat enough.

30 bananas a day would be about 450mg,plus any that was made in the body from tryptophan.

10 a day is enough to cause buildup based in serotonin content. A few foods with high serotonin

not probably going to be a problem,but how about a lifetime of high serotonin foods,combined with high tryptophan foods,combined with carbs,combined with b6 fortification. Combined with

increased artifical light at night,which lowers melatonin.

Who knows,farfetched,perhaps.

Old Mike

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/1/2013 8:02:16 PM (GMT-7)

Canada Mark said...
OM - http://phys.org/news/2011-02-serotonin-role-autism-cases.html

Lot's of info around on Autism and IBD type symptoms as well. I have a good friend with an Autistic child. I asked her the other day if he had issues. She said he always had but the doctor just dismissed them, She said she always wondered though.

Here is a father of a boy with Autism. IMO, there is a strong connection and I posted a few threads here too. I want to find out what that connection is. Not bragging but I am seriously considering doing a post-doc working with Autism and IBD. I am looking for research groups working on similar lines but so far did not find any.
Currently, Autism research is marred by various 'groups' and that makes it very difficult to put any new theory forward, esp for a post-doc.

Deltaforce: I think that would be very cool of you to do something like that!

You triggered something - I'm looking for an article series in our local paper - The Kitchener, Waterloo Record. 8 years ago I met a lady on a forum, and have since forgotten which forum. I was just diagnosed with Crohns-Colitis at the time and had some questions about SCD and all... I was in seriously rough shape... Nothing to do with Autism. Turns out she just lived on the other side of town - So i called and spoke with her for a while one night about the whole SCD thing. I don't recall the whole conversation in detail but she ended up telling me how she used it for her sons (Both are/were Autistic). She said her oldest, after a full year or so of diet modifications had just started regular kindergarden. She told me that if you ask him what he remembers about his "time" as he calls it, he usually tells people that had just had trouble putting the words together but he could understand what people were saying to him... so emotions etc as well. She also said her youngest son was taking longer but was just beginning to respond. I remember her says the youngest was severely Autistic. I was shocked and really saddened by the thought of the little guy not being able to put the words together but being able to feel everything emotionally etc and more so the fact that he remembered his "time" as he calls it according to her.... She also said the paper did a series following her children's progress but she eventually became frustrated because no one believed her etc (Doctors and such)... So she just trooped on on her own. We ended the conversation just by her saying I should give SCD a go and see what happens - and well I never spoke with her again.

Anyway - I sort of forgot all about that conversation till now... I'll try and poke around and see if I can dig up the series. Just another aspect that intrigues me about this seratonin/dopamine manipulation thing....

I did just come across this now while searching for the local lady: (A small excerpt) : http://www.flamboroughreview.com/news/alternative-therapies-help-quell-autism-symptoms/

This is very local to me as well.

-----------

"In addition to his erratic behaviour, Lucas was suffering from bloody stools and chronic gastro-intestinal issues — symptoms reflecting a relatively new finding that links the brain’s development and problems with the gut.

“Up to 85 per cent of children with autism have digestive problems, severe constipation, severe diarrhea, even mucus and blood,” said Doherty. Medical professionals will sometimes dismiss the digestive problems experienced by children on the spectrum as part and parcel of the disorder. “I hear this a lot and it’s just devastating,”


Again it's this whole Seratonin thing that has me gripped...

Maybe it's the dosage you take? Less than what the others tried perhaps? OM might have a thought or two...

My brother (non-UC) has a terrible time with sleep - Does it really make a difference? If so I'd like to tell him.

Enteric coated 1 50 mg. Now take with 1 L-Tyrosine 500 simply because of what you have been posting.

Avoiding it most nights now due to pred/flare and Giardia medication. I figure if there is something the label warning now is not the time. But every few days I still do.

Interesting my neurotransmitter test showed low seratonin. I have UC and depression. 2 boys autism spectrum. Not sure what to make of that.

Canada Mark I think I did it with my naturopath a while ago. It was urine and saliva. Not sure what you mean regarding amino acid thread. I just scanned this thread and posted my experience. Having low seratonin but having IBD and kids with autism. Haven't looked into this deeply yet.

@ season21,

Can we take our discussion, IBD, Autism etc. off this board? My email ID is in my profile.

Thanks in advance.

So much there to read and learn!

I am really interested too in the neurotransmitters because I work in mental health. Many people I see are on SSRIs and most will report stomach upsets for the first few weeks on meds, common of course. They all think they are taking a "brain chemical" and surprised to hear that 95% of serotonin for instance, is in the gut, as far as we know.

The other link here is bacteria is it not? This talk says that bacteria activate the gut endocrine system for instance..
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWT_BLVOASI
Which takes us back to the perfect storm of refrigeration and antibiotics messing up our commensual bacteria? What if developed countries are full of depression and anxiety (and hence millions of prescriptions written for meds that affect serotonin, dopamine etc.), not because we "have time to be depressed" and have lost our community ways of living (as is often theorised) but because our bacteria have been messed up?

Thanks Mike
Also interesting to think about the change in British diet - traditionally lots of boiled food, including boiled meat, steamed fruit puddings - now much more fried, chargrilled, plus of course all the new processed and sugary snacks/drinks.

Fascinated by this from the timeline
"1792 Anti-Saccharite Society forms in Europe to protest effect of sugar on people's health. It induces a British sugar boycott through Europe "

..and working in mental health, loved this
"1897 Freud writes that "********** is the prime habit and addiction which is replaced by addiction to alcohol, morphine and tobacco." Freud neglects to mention is his own further addiction to sugar and cocaine. This can postulate assumption that Freud was eternally high and sexually frustrated, which was projected to his own sexually dependent theory taken up later by psychiatry, due to his fixation on this matter".

Have to put my hand up as another sugar addict although I do fight it.