My latest UC theory-Call it part X

Regarding antibiotics in meat:

Here are some general clues we know (please adjust/correct me if wrong).
UC mostly north american @ first started 70 s /80 s ? in earnest.

We had the tech & drive of large corp. to find a way to make meat cheaper for more profit/market share.
I.E. antibiotic fed animals.
UC, autoimune & cancer issues have been gathering steam for decades & people are getting them younger & younger.

In north america we have so many possible factors. Antibiotics in meat & handed out like candy for sniffles, bad diet, water & foods laced with xyz, & added sugar in nearly every thing. Electro magnets fields, the possible go on...

Other countries are behind us regarding UC & now starting to have UC.

What has changed/is changing now in the nations were UC is growing.
Western diet ? & ? please help me fill in the blanks...

Found some interesting stuff over on the Crohn's board. Thought I'd post it here as it fits with the dysbiosis side of things, as well as immune response:

Beneficial Microbes Are 'Selected and Nurtured' in the Human Gut: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130809084127.htm

Related Article:
www.irishtimes.com/news/health/university-breakthrough-in-fight-against-crohns-disease-1.1477630

Some insight into the alteration of gut microbes over time (A VERY long time):www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212205609.htm

How "our good guys" keep the bad guys at bay: More reason to keep these guys around...www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423110817.htm

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This one I find really interesting as I have been diagnosed with Crohn's-Colitis and upon completion of pretty much every scope the doc talks about sub-mucosal inflammation. It's my biggest problem and I can't seem to get rid of it no matter what I do - With the exception of Remicade which worked awesome for this till I built up antibodies to it.

The last paragraph I found intriguing: "There is now overwhelming evidence that enteric bacteria play a major role in the pathogenesis of Crohn’s disease, either as causative agents or mitigating factors," he added. "As such, a great deal of effort has been devoted to the examination of the bacteria present within the intestinal lumen and associated with the mucosal lining of the intestine." This study is the first to look at bacterial populations within the submucosa, where the inflammation is actually occurring, he noted.

Study identifies distinct microbiome in Crohn’s intestinal submucosa: www.internalmedicinenews.com/single-view/study-identifies-distinct-microbiome-in-crohns-intestinal-submucosa/7163c64f0017bb0a13ca53b49a3d3867.html

And this is a copy of a post that was made in regards to the irish times article (it explained things quite well): Original article:www.irishtimes.com/news/health/university-breakthrough-in-fight-against-crohns-disease-1.1477630

NCOT - this might offer you some insight into the immune side of things. Perhaps the immune system is for some reason unable to recognize and distinguish between good and bad bacteria and this then leads to some sort of dysbiosis that keeps popping up.... or something like that.

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Reply that I liked:

This is interesting. I looked at the study abstract and since I couldn't understand it, I asked my daughter who is working on a PhD in immunology if she could explain it to me in terms that I could understand. This is her reply:

" There are a bunch of receptors on cells that recognize microbes (or sometimes even host products that signal there is an infection), these are called pattern recognition receptors (PRRs). The most famous ones are TLRs (you've probably heard me talk about them), but the other ones are Nod-like receptors (NLRs), which includes Nod2, and mutations in this one have been linked to Crohn's disease (and since NLRs recognize microbes, that's why many people think Crohn's disease is due to not being able to recognize and respond to microbes properly).

There is a process called ubiquitination, which basically marks proteins and other products for degradation or sometimes for moving them to another location in the cell (there are other functions, but these are the most common results). I don't know the genes/proteins they are looking at in this paper, but basically they were using mice that do not have a functional protein (Pellino3) for doing ubiquitination. They found that colitis in these mice was worse, and they also checked in CD patients and found they had lower levels of Pellino3.

Then they looked to see what this protein actually does, and it is responsible for adding ubiquitin to RIP2. If Pellino3 isn't around, then RIP2 isn't ubiquinated, and this meant that there was less NF-kB and MAPK activation (these are major pathways that respond to microbial infection and also are responsible for creating lots of inflammatory products). This is interesting, because most people want to reduce inflammation in CD, but this study seems to indicate that less inflammation (because NF-kB and MAPKs weren't as activated) actually made the disease worse. There are lots of functions of NF-kB and the MAPKs beside just creating inflammation, but it's still really interesting (which is probably why this is in Nature Immunology, arguably the best immunology journal). "

I've read about the Marshall protocol before. Personally, I think it is a crock. There are a hundred different "protocols" out there and they are all made to sound like they make sense. Common sense tells you that a hundred different "protocols" that all make sense don't make sense. All of these different protocols are from people that claim that they, and they alone, know the answer and that nobody else does. That doesn't make sense either. If someone really had the answer it would catch on like wildfire and the doctors would be out of business. Don't bet the farm on this helping.

I do personally know a person who has treated her Lyme's disease successfully with this protocoll?

Our biggest problem is that IBD in different people obviously have different reasons.
That's why for instance some people are doing good on probiotics and other people like me get high fever from them...

The answer for everybody does not exist. Every person has to look for his\her own answer.

Post Edited (chroninator) : 9/8/2013 9:49:57 AM (GMT-6)

Topical Arginine seems to raise hell with iNOS 10 fold increase and NO in people with minimal colitis,whatever that is.

While does nothing to normals.

Holy crap, how did I miss this one for this long of a time.

Old Mike

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00365520510023152?journalCode=gas

more

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1728426/pdf/v049p00387.pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 9/9/2013 11:58:50 AM (GMT-6)

Yes Freddy: I just posted another thread on starting wild lacto fermented pickles.
I am a little afraid to try tempeh, which has a really good bacteria,but it makes nanokinase,blood thinner.
I also said I used to eat some dirt,might even try that again or just some dandelion,I don't spray the yard
so they are organic.
OM

Regarding the comments from the previous page, e.g. phlegm and mouth bacteria:

In random researching a few years ago I came across studies showing definitive connections of inverse proportional relationships between flossing and heart disease and/or heart attacks. The microbes in the mouth really can have a major impact on the circulatory system, so why not the digestive? Ever since then I have become more disciplined about flossing regularly.

Also, I've always wondered about my phlegm and possible connection to Crohn's but could never make a connection in research. I started having a 'phlegmy' throat shortly (1-2 yrs maybe) before seeing my first symptoms. I remember distinctly the first time I hocked up one of these beige dried phlegm balls and being kind of scared because I didn't know what it was. Anyway, I am a very diligent spitter and if the situation will allow I'll go through some gruesome and loud hocking to get it out if there's something that's is ready to move.

 

Wow that paper really is brand new and very interesting. With all the evidence like this and other strands I've seen over the past year or so I really don't see how UC or CD can be said to be autoimmune diseases.

Here's one from last month. I searched mouth bacterial and colon cancer and found a link: Research suggests mouth bacteria promote bowel cancer

It's funny they mention this: "If larger studies confirm this work, a potential next step will be to develop tests to spot people at higher risk of bowel cancer or drugs that eradicate the effects of the bacteria," but do not mention developing something to get rid of the bacteria itself or the mechanism leading to or causing it's overgrowth.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/news/archive/cancernews/2013-08-14-Research-suggests-mouth-bacteria-promote-bowel-cancer?ssSourceSiteId=funding

Some new info on chrohn's microbiome, two different types of populations.

Old Mike

http://www.obgynnews.com/news/top-news/single-article/study-identifies-distinct-microbiome-in-crohns-intestinal-submucosa/7163c64f0017bb0a13ca53b49a3d3867.html

OM how did the dandelion do going through you?

Mark: I believe your scenario to be mostly correct although I'm not sure about the food aspect. If it was the food aspect alone versus the immune system there would seem to be an easy cure (and I mean cure) by just eliminating the foods that were causing the problem. It might take a while to accomplish but could be eventually figured out, if that were the cause. Unfortunately, with all of the people here who have tried diet modification, very few have achieved a "cure" by eliminating an offending food or foods.

More than likely our immune systems are attacking good bacteria in our colons in a fashion similar to the scenario you describe. The immune system has programmed itself to destroy a certain kind of good bacertia(s) in our colon, causing a microbial imbalance. Since it is programmed to destroy these bacteria simply adding more of these bacteria would not only not solve the problem but would make the problem worse. This might explain why some probiotics are helpful in some patients but make others worse. If this scenario is actually correct there are two possibilities that come to my mind:

1. Our immune system has been tricked into destroying good bacteria in our colons

2. Something such as an antibiotic has caused a genetic mutation in our good bacteria and our immune systems are going after this genetic mutation, causing inflammation in the attack.

Forgot to post these since we're all focused on bacteria at the moment. I was curious what was floating around about Bacteriodes - Since I believe this was what was extinct according to the Larry Smarr video and has been shown in the oral papers to be increased I believe (or at least I think I read that). It's like some sort of switch occurred and on the oral side Proteobacteria decreased and Bacteriodes increased BUT in the gut Proteobacteria Increased and Bactereodes decreased substantially. When again it should be the other way around. Like cross talk between the immune system or something weird like that. Mixed up signals btween gut and oral immune systems or something.

I swear this is what I read or came away with an understanding of from all the oral bacteria papers that were posted.

cmr.asm.org/content/20/4/593.full
jcs.biologists.org/content/120/11/1944.full.pdf
www.jci.org/articles/view/118878/files/pdf
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22075026
www.infectioncontroltoday.com/news/2013/08/biologists-identify-mechanism-by-which-beneficial-bacteria-reside-thrive-in-gastrointestinal-tract.aspx