HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Vaccination opt out is a cop out that literally is making people sick,says infectious disease leader

Support Forums
>
Ulcerative Colitis
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
1 23 4
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 6/5/2014 5:48 PM (GMT 0)
Vaccines don't work for everyone. Plus, for every several ten thousands who are immunized one will have a negative outcome.

Clearly, we should stop vaccinating completely. We should also not do any research into how to make vaccines safer.

Now, let me go find that bathwater with the baby in it...
Posted 6/6/2014 2:33 AM (GMT 0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6DuBR_xGQg

If you don't want to learn about Dr. Wakefield, just come in at 37 mins.
37 mins. starts his specifics about vaccines

Sorry, really understanding the vaccine story takes time.
Most important, understanding who/where your reading material really came from.

If you totally trust our government and Big Pharm team, don't waste your time.


Mark, thanks for the platform :)
Posted 6/6/2014 3:36 AM (GMT 0)
Let me guess....our government is responsible for 9/11 right? :)
Posted 6/6/2014 4:36 AM (GMT 0)
Haha... That was funny uchater cause I have a very close friend who is one of those full on conspiracy guys...

He's just a little older than me. Maybe 40. He has a young daughter and he and his wife (a nature kinda gal) are 100% convinced vaccines are the root of all modern problems. Grows his own chickens and stuff etc etc. takes picture of cloud something i.e. the government spraying chemicals in our air and all that good stuff.

So he swore off vaccines and antibiotics as they are "killing" us as he puts it. A conspiracy between big Pharma and the government.

Late last year his daughter (about age 2) starts to cough and then begins to stop breathing intermittently. He freaks out and goes to the hospital with her, understandably.

His daughter has whooping cough because he chose not to vaccinate her. That was the fastest I've ever seen a hardcore non-vaccinator vaccinate his child and give her antibiotics. They gave her the full gamut of vaccinations to.

Amazing how much seeing your child hooked up to a breathing machine can sway your opinion on vaccinations.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 6/5/2014 10:41:17 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/6/2014 12:26 PM (GMT 0)
A very recent DTaP vaccine study from the Oxford Journal Clinical Infectious Diseases demonstrates that vaccine efficacy is shockingly low, and varies greatly with age: 41% for toddlers and preschoolers and 24% for elementary age kids. These numbers make the pertussis vaccine one of the least effective vaccines on the market. (source)
Eighty-one percent of 2010 California pertussis cases under the age of 18 were fully vaccinated children; and in a pertussis outbreak in Texas, the CDC statistics show that 81.5 percent of cases were fully vaccinated.
It seems as though this new vaccine may have traded in potential side effects for less efficacy and less longevity.
To make matters worse, there is evidence that there’s a new “super strain” of the pertussis bacteria. This resilient bacteria is thought to be partially responsible for the resurgence of whooping cough, and it is particularly resistant to the DTaP vaccine. (source)

Important to understand this fact. Vaccinated person (done as directed) does not = immunized person.
This comes from the CDC website.
Don't miss the link.

http://holisticsquid.com/was-the-whooping-cough-epidemics-caused-by-unvaccinated-kids/

Mark, you have to look on the other side of the fence.
The CDC side is crystal clear. Don't vaccinate your child completely, risk death or maybe death of others.
Just viewing the other side of the fence requires an open mind with out fear.

I am glad medicine helped your friends daughter, as you know post vaccines did not.

By the way, I did have chickens and now own an electric car (the leaf).
Posted 6/6/2014 1:38 PM (GMT 0)
Ditto my last post on this subject. How can someone come on here and complain that others only look at the evidence from one side while they themselves only look at the evidence from one side?
Posted 6/6/2014 2:49 PM (GMT 0)
I hate to break it to you 25year....but just because you had to look hard time find your information and you have "no fear" doesn't make it true. Actually that's exactly the sort of thing all conspiracy theorists say....but, that just doesn't make it true, sorry.

I can look hard at anything and find contradicting information and form a conspiracy theory out of it. I like a good conspiracy, but thankfully I'm not a complete conspiracy theorists...there's a lot of stuff out there to argue against. :)

No, not all vaccines and medicines are going to be 100% effective (none are, actually)...I'm sure you can dig deep and find instances of medicines and vaccines that did not work at all or had some issues in the past. That doesn't mean we should all suddenly stop getting vaccinated.

Vaccines save MANY MANY more lives than they put at risk. A good experiment would be to throw everybody who refuses to get vaccinated on an island and see if they outlive us. At least that way they're not putting the rest of us at risk. And hey, if you outlive us, you can then say "HA! We were right! Science is a failure!!".
Posted 6/6/2014 11:32 PM (GMT 0)

UCHater said...
I hate to break it to you 25year....but just because you had to look hard time find your information and you have "no fear" doesn't make it true. Actually that's exactly the sort of thing all conspiracy theorists say....but, that just doesn't make it true, sorry.

I can look hard at anything and find contradicting information and form a conspiracy theory out of it. I like a good conspiracy, but thankfully I'm not a complete conspiracy theorists...there's a lot of stuff out there to argue against. :)

No, not all vaccines and medicines are going to be 100% effective (none are, actually)...I'm sure you can dig deep and find instances of medicines and vaccines that did not work at all or had some issues in the past. That doesn't mean we should all suddenly stop getting vaccinated.

Vaccines save MANY MANY more lives than they put at risk. A good experiment would be to throw everybody who refuses to get vaccinated on an island and see if they outlive us. At least that way they're not putting the rest of us at risk. And hey, if you outlive us, you can then say "HA! We were right! Science is a failure!!".

UC, I did not have to look hard or long for vaccine safety issues. In truth, I kept looking for common sense reasons and or facts to not... believe the vaccine safety issues. I wanted to go back in time to believe my son would be more safe with vaccines. It's a very difficult decision and I probably have read more pro vaccine info than you and mark combined.

Regarding conspiracy, I don't think there is one for vaccines.
The CDC's job is to keep the herd safe from disease break out and or mass casualties.
The Pharm. folks are in business to make money, that's their job.
The lobbyist's job is to represent their client.
Etc. etc.
I am sure nearly all think what they do is for our best.
At the very least, they perform as directed.

My purpose right this moment is to get one parent to look into vaccine safety.
That has happened already.
While we chat, another has thought to look.

The word Science popped up in your quote. Real science is exactly what vaccine safety folks want.
Vaccine safety (the safety issue of the vaccines itself), they are not really tested. It's mostly based on assumption. i.e. well that vaccine was safe, this one is similar should be safe as well. Well the best part is that while all these new vaccines have been ushered in over the decades. There have been zero tests/studies about accumulative effects to make sure we are not overloading a tiny child's immune system.
Ever heard about the brain-blood barrier (I had not)? Things we ingest have to get by all kinds of natural defenses. Vaccines and all the stuff inside goes almost directly to the tiny infant/child's brain via the blood.
Probably not too bad for you and I. How about the tiny human who's brain is still developing, whose immune system is not fully developed.
They can't even express what's happening inside them.

If my child lived in a country where people swim in the same water they poop in (sometimes even drink that same water), I would choose certain vaccines for sure.
USA in not that country anymore.
UC, your island concept sounds like pretty good science. Thousand vaccinated family's one island, second island thousand family's with out vac's. We find neutral doctors to track and test us for decades.
I only have one request, my island must be Aruba. :) :) :)


By the way UC, no one has suggested that any person should stop vaccinating. Most vaccine safety people mind their own business. I am only suggesting a parent look into safety risks as well.

http://www.nvic.org/
Posted 6/7/2014 5:12 AM (GMT 0)
Huh, no offence but that's just the strangest logic I have heard in a while.

To put it bluntly if you lived in a country where you swam in the same water you pooped in you wouldn't have access to vaccines... you wouldn't "pick and choose" vaccines out of convenience and there's a very high probability your child would be dead.

Many parts of Africa and Asia ARE your island....

There's no joke in that statement. It's a harsh reality for third world countries that we are out of touch with.

In the US many children died on a regular basis from terrible diseases. Not like bad flue bugs, or strep or certain common diseases we are familiar with, but horrific and terribly painful diseases that no child should have to endure.

You forget - the reason we have a country without these diseases is 100% due to vaccination.

Also you're supposed neutral "vaccine safety site" for "learning" is headed, run and maintained by absolutely zero doctors or anyone with a medical degree/molecular biology degree of any kind. In fact it's a full on "anti-vaccintor" site. Just the type that causes people to read false information. In fact it posts and promotes false information disguised as a "neutral" site. It's quite disturbing really.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 6/6/2014 11:47:12 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/7/2014 5:17 AM (GMT 0)
Vaccination has yielded some of the most profound success stories in terms of improving mortality rates worldwide, especially in young children.

In the United States, vaccines have eliminated a host of childhood diseases that were the leading cause of death for young children just 50 years ago… 50 years… so not that long ago. Measles, mumps, chickenpox, whopping cough, tetanus, diphtheria, and polio, once thought to be an inevitable part of childhood are now extremely rare or non-existents in the United States because of current vaccination practices.

Disease, Prevaccine, Post Vaccine, Reduction (%)
Smallpox 48,164 - 0 - 100%
Diphtheria 175,885 - 0 - 100%
Measles 503,282 - 25 - 99.99%
Mumps 152,200 - 2,612 - 98.28%
Whooping Cough 147,271 - 27,550 - 81.29%
Paralytic Polio 16,316 - 0 - 100%
German Measles 47,745 - 5 - 99.99%
Tetanus 1,314(deaths) - 26(cases) - 98.02%

Misinformation and myth surrounding vaccine efficacy and side effects continues to hamper many potentially life-saving vaccination programs.

Source - Kirby Immunology Seventh Edition (text book).

So again, your USA "is that country now" because your parents had you vaccinated. Choosing not to vaccinate your child will ultimately begin to kill children again. It's a fact that cannot be argued.


I guess what I fail to understand is what exactly are all these "safety concerns" - as far as I am aware the worst is a severe allergic reaction. And this is due to the additives or preservatives - which make them more effective and prevent spoilage. Other than an allergic reaction I cannot figure out what all the fuss is about, unless I'm missing something.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 6/6/2014 11:44:04 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/7/2014 11:42 AM (GMT 0)
Mark, you sound like your in or close to the medical field. If you are, I understand. Everything you are, know and your entire ego is at stake.
If your not in the field I could care less.

Thank god and history that the world holds more than brain washed people.
All threw history, it was people that could think and reason independently that made changes.
It's the ability to question what you read that is key. Sounds like you don't have a choice.

You continue your self proclaimed logic with out me.

This site is about Ulcerative Colitis.
Posted 6/7/2014 12:36 PM (GMT 0)
Hurling irrational abuse and then storming away is quite common when poorly constructed views are met by sound reasoning.

Some people think emotionally, which has its place.
Choosing to believe blogs and other questionable sites (such as those linked by 25yw/c) purely because they favor emotionally held views is not objective, nor is it reasonable.

Thanks Mark.
Posted 6/7/2014 1:03 PM (GMT 0)
Geeeeeeeeeeeeez. Talk about brainwashed! In the end people are going to believe what they want to believe and nothing is going to change their minds. I still find it incredibly amazing that the anti-vaccine crowd can accuse the pro vaccine crowd of not looking at all the facts and evidence while they themselves refuse to believe anything but their own preconceived viewpoints. Most of the pro-vaccine crowd are open minded enough to admit that vaccines aren't perfect and have some problems but the anti-vaccine crowd refuses to believe anything but their own warped viewpoints and it all makes perfect sense to them in their own little world where vaccines have zero value at all.
Posted 6/7/2014 1:08 PM (GMT 0)

fruitgirl said...
Some comments:


From your past post, I never thought these comments would come from you. I am going to keep it civil.

fruitgirl said...

Vaccines don't work for everyone. So even if you've had your kid vaccinated, they may still get vaccine-preventable diseases. So that's why I do care if others aren't vaccinated, and why I don't want my kids around unvaccinated kids. Sure, my kids have been vaccinated, but I have no real way of knowing if they were effective for them.


Right, there is something called as titer which any lab would do it for you. That will tell you if your body is strong enough for certain infection and if the vaccine has worked. When DS was up for booster doses, we did all the titers and all came pretty high )higher range of the spectrum). His ped. concluded, he does not need a booster. (Although DS has autism, he is fully vaccinated, and his ped is not from the class 'Vaccine causes injury'.)

fruitgirl said...

We also know that vaccines wear off over time. That's why it's recommended that people who are around young kids a lot get vaccinated for pertussis. It's particularly deadly for infants, and they don't get their first dose until they're 2 months old. They need more doses before they're "fully protected."


Agree partly, Some vaccines do wean off but majority of these vaccines are not against deadly diseases or can not be contained using medications, like teatanus. Immunology 101 tells you that the idea behind vaccination is, to teach your immune system to react to those organism in advance. As and when the immune system is taught, it has permanent memory. US is the only country, India and China being the next that shoot the boat load of jabs to the kids.

fruitgirl said...

Pharmaceutical companies don't make money off of most vaccines.


Some of the members on this board are ex-pharma people, including me. I challenge you to prove this. There is a rule of thumb in pharma industry. If you don't make certain percentage off the product, you do not develop it. I will not go into the details, but if you don't believe me, tell me why there is no drug against Malaria in recent past (and there are thousands dying in Africa from Malaria), a very much preventable disease.
Posted 6/7/2014 4:52 PM (GMT 0)
The one thing that's painfully obvious about this topic is the fact that the argument can back and forth for ever as has been pointed out. It's funny how wound up we get ourselves to! As a nation, or continent (North America) we all run the risk of undoing past success when this happens.

Really I think the truth is there's going to be no easy solution to this emerging problem. It's clear that the damage done by Andrew Wakefield is severe and persisting.

Sadly, the reality is that it's been reduced to a marketing campaign for both sides. Nothing more.

We can't really force vaccination on people, though I fear it may now end up this way. One interesting report suggested making it very difficult to "otp-out" of vaccination. So in order to choose not to vaccinate your child you have to write an essay on why and try to support your claims and you also have to attend a short vaccination education seminar. Personally I don't know what to think about this - but it said that ~50% of the people just went ahead and vaccinated their children under these circumstances. So in states where all they have to do is check "personal reasons" on the form for not vaccinating ~50% more children go unvaccinated.
Posted 6/7/2014 8:46 PM (GMT 0)

Ambling said...
Hurling irrational abuse and then storming away is quite common when poorly constructed views are met by sound reasoning.
Some people think emotionally, which has its place.Choosing to believe blogs and other questionable sites (such as those linked by 25yw/c) purely because they favor emotionally held views is not objective, nor is it reasonable.


I thought 25yw/c made some very good points. It is not fair to say "he is hurling irrational abuse" just because you don't happen to agree with him.


Canada Mark said...
Also you're supposed neutral "vaccine safety site" for "learning" is headed, run and maintained by absolutely zero doctors or anyone with a medical degree/molecular biology degree of any kind. In fact it's a full on "anti-vaccintor" site. Just the type that causes people to read false information.

What "zero doctors or anyone with a medical or molecular biology degree?" I guess you did not see my earlier post on this thread:

IamCurious said...
Not everyone who is against vaccines was a former playboy bunny like Jenny McCarthy. How about Dr. Bernadine Healy, the former head of the National Instituteof Health, the former head of the American Red Cross, and the former Chair of the White House Cabinet Group on Biotechnology, one of several White House positions she held in service to three U.S. presidents.

Dr. Healy criticized the public health establishment for being "too quick to dismiss [vaccine concerns] as irrational...The more you delve into it, if you look at the basic science, if you look at the research that's been done in animals, if you also look at some of these individual cases, and if you look at the evidence... what you come away with is that the question [of vaccine safety] has not been answered."

How about Professor Walter Spitzer of McGill University, considered Canada's "dean" of epidemiology. In 2002 testimony to a U.S. Congressional committee hearing into the safety of various childhood vaccines, he matter-of-factly stated that, based on the evidence to date involving one of the vaccine combinations under scrutiny, "I cannot recommend it ... for my own grandchildren."

Then there are government scientists like Peter Fletcher, former Chief Scientific Officer at the UK's Department of Health. Dr. Fletcher was also the Medical Assessor to the Committee on Safety of Medicines, and thus the very person who determined for the UK government whether vaccines were safe. Dr. Fletcher has several times gone public with his concerns over vaccines, and with his frustration that "no one in authority will even admit [a vaccine-related problem could be] happening, let alone try to investigate the causes."

Those who are labelled as anti-vaccination rogue scientists are hardly rogues -- they are found at the pinnacle of the medical establishment. Maybe that is why congress felt it was necessary to pass a law exonerating Big Pharma from any future lawsuits resulting from the deleterious effects of vaccinations.

Posted 6/7/2014 9:04 PM (GMT 0)
I think it's regrettable that people are swayed into not doing what they can to protect their children from preventable diseases, but under our current laws children still "belong" to their parents and that choice is protected. I just think if they choose not to immunize, they should keep their children at home and never let them mingle with other children.

There are children out there who, because of a medical condition, either can't receive immunizations or don't respond to them. They are at the mercy of those parents who choose to believe the mystics rather than the objectives.
Posted 6/7/2014 10:18 PM (GMT 0)

Judy2 said...
I think it's regrettable that people are swayed into not doing what they can to protect their children from preventable diseases, but under our current laws children still "belong" to their parents and that choice is protected. I just think if they choose not to immunize, they should keep their children at home and never let them mingle with other children.

There are children out there who, because of a medical condition, either can't receive immunizations or don't respond to them. They are at the mercy of those parents who choose to believe the mystics rather than the objectives.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Posted 6/7/2014 10:39 PM (GMT 0)
I'd hope all schools at some point would require proof if vaccination for kids to attend unless the kid has a medical condition that prevents him from being able to receive it.

Our daycare requires proof of vaccination.

Actually I would hope the anti vaccine crowd has such distrust of the system that they wouldn't even send their kids to school (or brain washing institutions as they probably call them) and would instead opt for home schooling. At least that keeps their destructive beliefs from possibly harming our kids.

That might just be wishful thinking though. :/

Post Edited (UCHater) : 6/7/2014 5:07:58 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/8/2014 1:49 AM (GMT 0)
Yeah. If we were all extremists then we could keep our kids home and homeschool them while in a protective bubble. Wouldn't ever let them out because if they were to touch a door knob somewhere they could easily catch something. We could move to a farm and grow our own food, raise our own meat, and give our kids gas masks to wear all day long and buy bottled water. Wait a minute, you might not be able to trust that bottled water. After all these companies make bottled water with profit in mind and you'd have to go to a store with all of those germs in order to buy it. I guess we'd just have to catch rain water. Wait a minute, can't do that either. It might have been contaminated by the air. Now I'm really in a dilemma.
Posted 6/8/2014 4:50 PM (GMT 0)
@OM - I spoke with my friend last night actually while watching the Hockey Game. He said that he didn't know what to do other than try to make the best decision he could for his child when faced with the problem (i.e. seeing his 2 year old daughter hooked up to a breathing machine scared the crap out of him). So he chose to vaccinate to prevent this from occurring again. He said his daughter if fine now, and there was no permanent damage from the ordeal (whooping cough).

So I asked him what it was exactly that made him not want to vaccinate in the first place. His only answer was that all that he read about vaccines said they were poisoning our systems. He brought up the autism thing (and was unaware that the data was falsified) and he mentioned an additive "mercury" but was unaware of why it was added or that it had been removed from most if not all childhood vaccines. Thimerosol was what he was really meaning but was unfamiliar with the term. He was also unaware that the "anti-vaccinators" had nothing to do with the removal of Themerosol. HE focused in on the word "Mercury".

In a round about way I guess this goes to show what information he was reading and what information he was choosing to believe. After all, he is into the conspiracy thing, so there's no way he's going to read and believe anything the CDC has to say cause they are "out to get us"... Funny that he still holds to his whole conspiracy thing, even though he had his child fully vaccinated.

How do you change that? I think that's the scariest part really.

We all at some point perhaps question vaccines/links to disease. Maybe the topic of conversation could change from both sides forcing their opinion to what exactly would make them choose to vaccine their children? What would they like to see? Are there perhaps more natural adjuvants and preservatives that can be added instead? And if these more natural ingredients were used would they then finally choose to vaccinate?

If not then there is really nothing that can be done as in this case they are just purely afraid of the word "vaccine"... and unfamiliar with the effect of not vaccinating.

So maybe it starts with understanding exactly what would make them choose to vaccinate and working from there.

Perhaps there's someone with an un-vaccinated child on here that could say what they feel would make them comfortable vaccinating their child.
Posted 6/9/2014 6:51 PM (GMT 0)
These two popped up today:

Measles journey highlights risk to unvaccinated kids:
medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-measles-journey-highlights-unvaccinated-kids.html


Combined MMRV vaccine shows slight rise in adverse events:
medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-combined-mmrv-vaccine-slight-adverse.html So the question of this one is maybe it's a little safer to do separate versus combined vaccination - or at the very least keep an eye out and monitor your child for fever and at first sign take them in. Might be the better way to handle it.
Posted 6/9/2014 9:03 PM (GMT 0)
I thought this discussion was finally over but we just continue on and on talking past each other. Most anti-vaxxers are not against vaccines but we are against the sharp uptake of vaccination schedules during the 1980's.

We say that the vaccines have not been adequately tested while you guys say over and over that repeated studies show multiple vaccines are safe. But look at it objectively and you will see that vaccines have not been adequately tested.

You say that without the full schedule of vaccines that children will die of measles and whooping cough, etc. We say that there were no disease epidemics on the old 1983 vaccine schedule and going back to that schedule might curb the current autism epidemic.

We say that there has been a huge surge in autism rates, you guys say that the increase can be explained by more vigilant diagnosis. But I am not letting you get away with that falsehood. When pressed even the most strident advocates of vaccines finally have to admit that there was a huge spike in the autism rate, a "hockey stick" exponential increase, in the 1980's all over the world in a wide diversity of countries. That can only be explained by a change in the environment.

You say that it is only uneducated conspiracy theorists who are against vaccines while we are saying that more and more medical doctors at the pinnacle of their profession are recognizing that there is a safety issue here. By safety issue I do not mean a slight rise of adverse events but a full-blown epidemic.

I am surprised that so many on this forum in particular are so vocal in their support of vaccines. We are the ones who learned the hard way that doctors do not have all the answers, (e.g. "food has nothing to do with UC"), and that we must take charge of our own health.

Activists like Jenny McCarthy are called baby killers for exposing children to sickness and disease. But we say that we are the only ones who are in the position to speak for our little ones. Medical authorities are forced to change their position on drugs like Fen-phen, Baycol, and Vioxx when adults have the ways and means to defend themselves. But little ones are defenseless against the insults to their immune system unless their parents can speak for them.

The only thing that can possibly change my mind on this issue is if the government conducted rigorous, bona fide testing of the multiple vaccines.

I thought 25yw/c made some excellent points in his post, especially the youtube video of Dr. Wakefield defending himself. The video explains his position much more powerfully than I can. He cites some studies showing that just by extending the vaccine schedule by only a few weeks or months can reduce adverse effects drastically.

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6DuBR_xGQg
Posted 6/9/2014 10:06 PM (GMT 0)
That's all fine and dandy... but why aren't these people vaccinating their kids on the old schedule then?

The key is they are simply just skipping vaccination all together. Zero vaccines.

Maybe there isn't an option for this? Or well, I'm not sure what I am missing here...
Posted 6/10/2014 1:12 AM (GMT 0)
Good point Mark. I'd like to hear their answer to that question.

Let's assume that multiple vaccines need more testing. Right now there is really no proof whatsoever that multiple vaccines aren't safe, generally speaking. Seems like the anti-vac crowd wants to latch onto a handful of problems and blow them way out of proportion. Sure, if you or your family are one of the very few unlucky ones who have a problem with vaccines then that's horrible. Nothing in this world is 100% safe including just about every drug out there for UC, or any other disease for that matter. Heck, Aspirins and Tylenols have problems. But, generally speaking, there is a large mountain of evidence showing that the benefits of vaccines are exponential compared to the handful of problems.

As far as increased vaccination schedules coinciding with increased Autism rates, that's ridiculous and absurd. There could be a hundred or more reasons for increased Autism rates having nothing to do with more vigilant diagnosis. In fact, the supposed link between increased Autism rates and vaccinations has been studied to death over and over and over again but other theoretical reasons haven't been studied much at all. Personally I think it means something when those of us here who have been failed by our doctors are still realistic enough to know that vaccines and Autism are not related. There's the real world and there is the fantasy/conspiracy world.
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
1234