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Is Chiropractic Manipulation of Stomach Safe/Effective for Hiatal Hernia/GERD?

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Posted 4/9/2014 2:16 AM (GMT 0)
(Ok, please disregard my thread about the allergy clinic's naturopath. I was taken for a ride. It was not my gall bladder or liver... well maybe some of that supplementation helped and making sure to stay awa from my triggers and intolerances and allergies .. but i am not cured...)

And before I get to the heart of this post about Chiro/Osteopath manipulation of stomach for GERD/Hiatal Hernia  - can somebody please tell me if TIF or Nissen is better and are there disturbing risks with the surgeries?   I have a strong heart and dont react to sedation. I assume I have at least a 4-6cm Hiatal Hernia, which doesnt show up on barium but I know it slides in. I cannot eat late... otherwise I have to be up till 3.. chest pain.. etc...  On days where I have symptoms... I cant work out, cant climb up the stairs after meals without feeling short of breath and chest pressure... but I have goo days also.

But anyways, recently I have had a hunch to go see a chiropractor trained in hiatal hernia reduction... (he used to do my sports injuries and ART on my shoulder which was chronically all messed up before... now i can barely go in the gym... but i think his first treatment last week did something good - that night i could go to bed not too outrageously long after eating... with very minimal feeling of tightness...  so it toned something and loosedned something (I thought the LES should be tight... so we have a medical contradiction now).

He has been applying lots of downwards pressue on the stomach at these sessions and applying electrical stim to the diaphragm. As I breathe out.. with some pain and pressure. He assures the pressure is downwards as the second time  I got a bit concerned abut making it worse.   I have to go in for several sessions for him to get the stomach in the right place. He says he can feel the stomach above my diaphragm. Says that he feels my LES still resilient and not gone.. (he does two people a day on average for GERD/HH. But says for some unknown reason my stomach had gone up - prolly from being an anxious person in general... its more of a syndrome because the barium swallow did not pick it up.. and he says my LES is still ok..  but says the wrong things are tight which is pushing upwards.... (makes no sense, but I feel more relaxed after going there... looser diaphragm... better digestion).

His naturopath next door says its worth a shot if the damage is not anatomical to continue toning the region... butI am scared if the damage is anatomical - if the important ligament and LES is loose... well.. why are we loosening even more? He says the wrong area is right and feels the tightness which is pushing up mt stomach... is relieving that tightness... but I hope increasing in the right spots.

Am I at risk for further damage to the hiatal hernia?

And if I have a giant HH (or not so giant or more giant after this - .. can some one please generously share if i still cab be a candidate for Linx somehow with a repair first?

Has lynx been tested on anyone with a large hiatal hernia? And Is there a triple surgery - TIF, Nissen and Linx available?

Post Edited (7Stringer) : 4/9/2014 11:09:25 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/9/2014 3:04 PM (GMT 0)
7stringer, I can't answer most of your questions, but I can say that I had a linx placed about 6 weeks ago, and my surgeon fixed my large hiatal hernia first, with stitches. I am doing great now (I had a fluttery heart before, presumably due to my stomach bulging up toward the heart).

You need to consult with a surgeon who can do hernia repair laparoscopically (i'm not talking about fundoplication, but actual stitches or mesh repair of hernia), so that she/he could hopefully go in via laparascope, and fix the hernia, place the linx.

My surgeon can do this, he's in northern Virginia, don't know where you are. But maybe if you consult with him he can find you another surgeon who can do same. His name is G. Kevin Gillian, MD, and his website is http://www.virginiahernia.com/

Only a doctor can answer all your questions. Good luck!

Erica
Posted 4/9/2014 3:17 PM (GMT 0)
7stringer-

First off, if your stomach is above the diaphragm you have a very large HH and it needs to be surgically fixed period. I have NO idea how he can feel the LES through the stomach and esophagus tissue unless he has some magical touch. Don't get me wrong I am all for chiros, but they have their limits.

Personally I have not seen enough good data about the TIF to recommend it, but the Linx is showing good results and the Nissen has been doing great for a long time.

Myself, I would get into a surgeon who has a proven track record with reflux surgery and see what they have to say. There are some things the body just isn't capable of repairing itself.

Take care,
Bill
Posted 4/9/2014 4:58 PM (GMT 0)
Ok...  thank you... but I can feel it coming down when he pulls it down and loosens/works out  the diaphragm area there is some relief....  and last evening there was no reflux upwards of a burrito and there was no chest pressure when laying to sleep...  maybe very low pain spasms... nothing to complain about as before...  

but is my thing for sure a sliding?  The barium did not show anything.. except for "significant amount of reflux)...... but if it was paraesophageal, would the barium have showed that for sure?  Can a paraesophageal be sliding also?   I only was able to drink 2/3 of the contrast... not all of it... did that compromise the test so it did not go up into a possible paraesophageal?  Or would laying down and turning around with the amount i swallowed for sure have outlined the paraesophageal bubble if it was present?  Can someone please assure me about that one as I really hope its not paraesophageal.

Its horrible not to have sure answers... but why are so many people in these forums so negative saying I cannot have this repaired manually or self-adjusted through lifestyle, lowered anxiety and lowered stress??   What if simply my LES is tired and I go to bed earlier like I did last night and with no symptoms today?  What if its nothing but anxiety pushing the stomach up?  Why is the nature of so many people to say - no this is not possible and no that is not possible?  WHat if this was nothing but anxiety just somehow making the stomach get stuck upwards?  What if it was just something tight which should not have been tight in the diapraghm?  Because certainly he is loosedning things up so my stomach can stay down....

And is anyone not aware of the reported relief that people are reporting from chiros regarding this?   What if my issue is not anatomical and the stomach just somehow got up there from anxiety?  (because remember my good days?  like with low anxiety days including the acupuncture one)... What if the LES is strong enough to keep it down now after we brought it down, and loosened the right muscles?  WHat if the LES was never loose to begin with?  (The chiro by the way is not the only one saying the LES is fine... the barium report said no evidence of a weak LES).   

They say a Loose LES contributes to the issue..  well... the chiro said "see here...  theres all this tightness in your diaphragm which is keeping the stomach pushed up" ....  ) so his sessions loosened things....  but why are you all saying the area should be tight?    when going into hot water - why does that relax everything and make the symptoms go away?  why when the chiro tones everything proper to be loose then its nice and down there....  Im so lost... so many contradictions...  nobody is making any sense... who is right?  Should the diaphragm be loose or tight? ?? LOL

 

Post Edited (7Stringer) : 4/9/2014 11:14:35 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/9/2014 5:15 PM (GMT 0)
also, nobody has addressed whether it could just be "hiatal hernia syndrome" and not a real hiatal hernia... which would explain this logically if my hopes are somehow accurate.
Posted 4/9/2014 5:19 PM (GMT 0)

Erica_LINX said...
7stringer, I can't answer most of your questions, but I can say that I had a linx placed about 6 weeks ago, and my surgeon fixed my large hiatal hernia first, with stitches. I am doing great now (I had a fluttery heart before, presumably due to my stomach bulging up toward the heart).

You need to consult with a surgeon who can do hernia repair laparoscopically (i'm not talking about fundoplication, but actual stitches or mesh repair of hernia), so that she/he could hopefully go in via laparascope, and fix the hernia, place the linx.

My surgeon can do this, he's in northern Virginia, don't know where you are. But maybe if you consult with him he can find you another surgeon who can do same. His name is G. Kevin Gillian, MD, and his website is http://www.virginiahernia.com

Thanks Erica... will see if he knows anyone good up here in Canada... I am considering surgery still if the osteopathic sessions wont be permanent fixes.   I just hope the sessions don't risk progression to paraesophageal with all that pressure.... because Alcie said in another thread that such sessions can make the hernia paraesophageal.  What evidence does Alcie have for this?  I will ask him to chime in.  Because I told this to the gy and he said he's not pushing upwards... even though the pressure might feel that way at some points during the session,

Posted 4/9/2014 5:56 PM (GMT 0)
Do not get a hernia repair with mesh! My surgeons in an area teaching hospital, who have done many thousands and many kinds of repairs since the '90s, say mesh erodes into the diaphragm and other organs and blood vessels. My repair was done using my own tissue for reinforcement, not just stitches.

Chiro may pull down the stomach temporarily, but that's no cure. You need to see a medical doctor, a gastroenterologist, for the diagnosis and then, if necessary, a thoracic surgeon. Yes, thoracic, since the stomach goes into the chest and to bring it down will probably necessitate taking down the esophagus by cutting the tissue that holds it up in the chest.

Since you say your LES is loose, you may need surgery to tighten it. Since I know I need future MRIs, I did not even consider having metal implanted in my body. My surgical group does various types of Nissen because they have by far the best outcomes. They have investigated all the other options during their many years of research. Their outcomes run in the 96% + range. My surgery was a Toupet, a partial Nissen. It should be left up to the surgeon what type of repair is done - based on your individual needs, which is based on testing.
Posted 4/10/2014 3:36 AM (GMT 0)
so confused.. half of what I read on surgery is nightmare stories of recovery... not just elsewhere but also on this forum... if I just eat light stuff, fruits, veggies and fish, etc.. then im fine. this surgery doesn't seem worth it.

but on the other hand...  i'd prolly rather go through all that then my sudden palpitations and spasms.... not sure what to do...

Posted 6/27/2017 12:14 AM (GMT 0)
7Stringer, I'm curious about what you found out or decided to do. I'm going through the same thing with so many questions and very few answers. Did you end up having success with a chiropractor? I hope you see this. Thanks in advance!
Posted 6/27/2017 3:15 AM (GMT 0)
Just my two cents:

I went to a chiropractor that claimed to specialize in this sort of thing. I had ~8-10 visits where the chiropractor performed these exercises to try and bring the hiatal hernia back below the diaphragm. I personally did not see any results.

Around this same time, through self-study, I became exposed to how 'non-medical' chiropractic care really is. One of the originating ideas that chiropractic care is founded upon is that all (or most) diseases stem from problems with the spine, even things like the common cold or the flu. For instance, early chiropractors were against mass vaccinations because they were convinced that these diseases stemmed from the nervous system and that vaccination would not 'solve the underlying issue'.

While many modern chiropractors are not this constrained in their thinking, almost all of them are somewhere in-between. They perform a variety of routine and specialty procedures that have no underlying scientific basis, including ones that claim to manipulate or improve a hiatal hernia successfully - you'll find just as many that claim to have techniques for IBS, Crohn's Disease, Arthritis, etc..

As I continued to read into it, it seemed more like some religious/spiritual ritual than anything logical or real. I'm somewhat baffled at how insurance companies even cover chiropractor care in the same way they cover other, much more legitimate medical services. Just read the first paragraph of the 'chiropractic' wikipedia article.

Post Edited (EJohn) : 6/26/2017 11:54:39 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/28/2017 11:38 AM (GMT 0)
FACSmom:

7Stringer has not been active on this Forum in three years. You will probably get more responses if you start your own topic.
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