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Healing naturally from GERD - Is it possible?

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Posted 3/8/2016 3:32 AM (GMT 0)
I have read countless stories on this forum and want to thank you all as I have learned a lot from many of you but I have not posted until now. I am rather excited but very unsure what is going on so please allow me to explain my story below.


Profile and backstory:
I am a 34 year old male, 6'2" 220lbs, average build, few spare pounds in the belly but not much. I was diagnosed having GERD with a 6cm hiatal hernia when I was 20 using an endoscope. I had a follow up endoscope 6 years ago and another one done a few months ago. Until a couple years ago I ate the typical american diet, which was full of crap food, processed foods and enough sugar to choke a horse. I seriously ate a ridiculous amount of sugar filled foods since I have been a child.

Like most of us I was put on various PPIs from my GI docs. I used them for over a decade and have suffered the wrath of using PPIs. I had trouble digesting foods, have lived for years malnutritioned from not digesting foods. A few years ago I was diagnosed as having both hormone and thyroid problems that are being treated as well, which I think are linked to so many years of not absorbing various vitamins and minerals from the PPIs.


What I have tried:

A few years ago I had enough of the PPIs and food digestion problems. I had to find a way out, so I found this forum and a few helpful websites. I had first switched to using several H2 blockers instead of PPIs for a few months, but that didn't help much.

I found this very helpful website last year: http://chriskresser.com/get-rid-of-heartburn-and-gerd-forever-in-three-simple-steps/

I tried his regiment but it didn't help too much the first time. I think it was too soon after leaving the PPIs behind. Looking back I think I also did not take enough HCL, since my stomach was pretty much not producing ANY. I could eat an early dinner, and the food was still sitting in my stomach 6 hours later, trust me I know for sure it was still there. I also would pass vegetables and they would not be digested.

I continued on for several months just taking Tums when needed, which was pretty often and toughing through without the use of PPIs. I knew I needed a better solution. I also knew I was NOT going back on PPIs ever again.

I then attempted the regiment once again from the link above. I figured that maybe a few adjustments to it, as well as more time had passed since I stopped the PPIs, that maybe my body would adjust better.


What I changed:
I have been following the regiment of:

1. using good quality strong probiotics every morning.
2. using multi enzymes everytime I ate
3. using HCL with pepsin everytime I ate
4. using an adjustable tempurpedic bed
5. cut out processed foods, trigger foods, cut down on sugars
6. eating a paleo inspired diet, not too strict but I try
7. stopped taking Tums and use chewing gum instead
8. started using this exercise when heartburn pops up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu2MQqS2ucY


A few months ago following the regiment above, I started out using 2 HCL pills and worked my way up each week adding 1 more pill at a time. I noticed as I increased pills I was starting to digest better, but would still have heartburn. I noticed around 4 - 6 pills I would get A LOT of burping after I ate but was actually starting to digest food. I worked my way up all the way to 11 pills every time I ate. While eating that many, I noticed I was finally fully digesting food again, it was a great feeling but was A LOT of pills to take every time I ate, it was kind of annoying.

Then after taking that many pills each time I ate for about two weeks, I noticed a new heartburn, one that was different than ever before. It was actual TOO much acid heartburn, trust me it feels different! So I backed down on the pills to 8 then to 5, now I'm down to between 1 - 3 depending on what and how much I eat.

Now about this time, during the decline of HCL pills required when I ate, I noticed a new sensation sometimes but not always. It was burning in the back of my throat. I had not had this before, it was always lower in the esophagus. I looked it up and it seems to be LPR, it's weird because I have never had this before at all. It continues now even though I'm down to 1 - 3 pills when I eat. It also happens randomly during the day when I'm not eating.

I still take 1 multi enzyme pill when I eat, and 1 probiotic each morning as well. I don't take the DGL as mentioned in the link, but I may try to soon, as I have some left over from when I tried them the first time mentioned above last year. Anyone have suggestions or stories about using DGL?

Instead of using Tums when heartburn pops up, I'll do the exercise linked above any time of the day, I know it looks funny, but it is legit, it works! I also will use chewing gum to help produce saliva which is naturally alkaline. It works wonders as well.

I also changed my eating over the course of the last 3 years, I do not eat any fast food except Chick fil a. It's the only relatively decent quality food to eat when you need a quick meal when you are out, other than that, I switched to a mostly organic and / or natural diet for the food I purchase from the grocery store.

I try to eat a few hours before I go to bed at night, no late night snacks for me. I also purchased a tempurpedic bed with an adjustable base. The incline helps keep the acid down while I sleep, this was expensive for sure, but it's probably the best money I've ever spent. I don't regret 1 cent of it.



Where I stand now:

Its only been like 2 weeks since I've been down to 1 - 3 HCL pills, so i'm still new to this situation. I have good meals and bad meals. I am trying to keep note of what doesn't sit well afterward. Most meals seem to only need 1 pill and I'm good afterward. If I notice any discomfort or feeling like food isn't getting digested from the 1 pill, such as crampy or bloating feeling, I'll take another pill or two and that solves the issue.

If I feel like I took a pill to much, then I'll chew gum or if it's night time and I am trying to sleep I will pop 1 Tums just for quick relief, but this is not often, it's only been like 2 nights in the past 2 or 3 weeks, which for me is a huge success from eating fist fulls of Tums several times every day.

I still have the LPR but it seems to be getting a little better and less often, maybe the DGL and / or Slippery Elm could help with that. Anyone know?


My questions:

So I've shared my story, and I hope it helps some others with their journey to healing with GERD but I have a few questions myself.

1. Am I actually healing anything?
2. Has my stomach finally "learned" how much acid to produce?
3. Has anyone else had a similar experience?
4. Anything I should do or try for better results?
5. Does DGL or Slippery Elm actually help anyone?
6. Any suggestions for the LPR?
7. Anyone else have hormone or thyroid issues along with or a result of GERD?

Post Edited (Paulie B) : 4/24/2016 1:53:29 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 3/10/2016 2:57 AM (GMT 0)
I wanted to follow up on my thread today and say that for the past two days, I have stopped using the HCL altogether. I now only use the Digest Enzyme when I eat a meal, but not when I eat snacks. I also still take my probiotic every morning.

Rarely throughout the day I may get a little heartburn, not to bad at all compared to previously and I either chew a piece of gum and it's gone or I do the exercise here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu2MQqS2ucY and it's gone.

I have yet to try the DGL (Deglycyrrhizinated licorice) or Slippery Elm pills but now that I don't seem to have to take the HCL all the time, I will try to use those two again as they are supposed to help build up the natural mucus in the stomach and esophagus.

If anyone has any questions or comments please let me know and I'll do my best to answer them.
Posted 3/11/2016 1:07 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Paulie B,

Thanks for sharing your story and also for replying to my thread with your experience with PPIs and GI doctors.

I've also read Chris Kresser's website about getting rid of heartburn and GERD, and I think he's got a lot of valid points too. I've yet to try the HCL test since I have yet to even get a scope to see what's really going on in my stomach. My scope appointment is in 2 weeks. I think DGL and slippery elm pills have worked for some people and not so much for others, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try.

As for the PPIs that I've been taking for the past week, I'm not getting any heartburn but you are so correct on the side effects and how it's not good for your body. I have low iron in my blood and regularly take iron pills. I've noticed the past few days that I've been especially tired and from my bowel movements, I can see that my body isn't absorbing the iron properly. Most likely because of the cut off in stomach acid. I'll be speaking to a pharmacist on getting another type of oral iron supplement.

I was just wondering, did you experience any side effects of acid rebound when you went off your PPIs and how long did those last? I'm really looking forward to getting off PPIs once I get the results from my scope. By then, it will have been about 1 month on the medication.

Much appreciated!
Posted 3/11/2016 4:36 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Vallry220, I think you have made a good choice to wait on trying the HCL until you get a scope done. Once you have the results of that scope, you will have a much better idea of your particular issues. Even though many of us with GERD and its related digestive issues suffer many of the same symptoms, there are many root causes to the symptoms.

For me, I'm positive that my incredibly poor eating habits as a child, teenage years and early twenties is what did me in. I treated my digestive system as a garbage disposal for anything that had massive amounts of sugars and carbohydrates in it for 2 decades.

I know from your original post you mentioned that you were making lifestyle changes, does that include cleaning up your eating? That is I think one of my biggest changes I had to make, was to drastically cut down on the sugars, processed foods and unclean foods.

I can proudly say that I absolutely do not eat fast food anymore with the exception of Chick Fil A. They are the only fast food I'll eat as they have a much higher standard for the food they serve. I have also almost cut out any food that comes from a pre-made package in the grocery store with a few exceptions here and there.

For my breakfast most days I eat two greek yogurts and / or eggs and oatmeal.

For my lunch, I eat mostly chicken, potatoes and different vegetables and fruits. Sometimes I'll eat a hamburger or other sandwich.

For dinner, this varies but I try to stick with something along the lines of chicken, beef, pork or fish along with some sort of vegetable and usually a potato or rice for some carbs.

That just gives you examples of some of the ways I've cleaned things up, now I do snack in between now and then, usually I try to keep to fruit or vegetables, but i sneak some pretzels or a few chocolates in here and there. I also drink protean shakes pretty often between as well because I work out several times a week and need to keep my protein intake up.

I know this post has a lot more information than you were asking for, I am just trying to put some extra details out there for what has helped me. I think changing the way we eat goes a long way to helping our bodies return to it's natural state. I think the large amount of chemicals, pesticides, artificial ingredients and GMOs has wrecked our bodies and some of us are for one, more sensitive to them, and for two people like me for 2 decades, ate WAY more than our share of those products and caused our bodies to fail.

For me, I do not think I suffered from acid rebound, in fact I think I had the opposite happen, where when I got off of the PPIs, my body pretty much stopped all together producing acid. As with my story above, I had to work my way up to using a total of 11 HCL pills each time I ate a meal 3 times a day for about 2 weeks! I think once I hit that point, my body finally kicked in and realized it needed more acid, I am not sure as I am no doctor. I just know that somehow during that couple month period, my body started to produce it's own acid again after a very long time of not doing so. I know this for sure, as I know my food is being digested where before it was definitely not.
Posted 3/11/2016 11:13 PM (GMT 0)
Paulie B -

That's awesome, I'm really happy to see that you're getting much better!

As for me, I'm not quite sure what caused mine. I know that my mom had an episode of acid reflux for some time. She would feel tightness in her chest whenever she slept at night and the doctor said that it's acid reflux. She changed her eating habits for a while and it got better and didn't come back. I was eating relatively fine until a year and a half ago when work became really stressful. I had irregular hours too, and had times when I'd get home, have a large meal and fall asleep shortly after. I've gained weight during that time, and definitely could have contributed to my acid reflux.

Weirdly enough, I got a new job that's 9-5 and had only a fraction of the stress, and I didn't really experience the gerd until 6 months into that new job. However, I look back on it now and can see that I didn't eat as healthy as I could have.

Since I've experienced gerd symptoms, I've done my best to be as healthy as possible. The symptoms really worried me and I wanted to do whatever I can to feel "normal" again. I go to hot yoga classes 4-5 times a week and my diet is pretty similar to yours. I eat an apple and some yogurt with kefir in the morning for probiotics. I usually make a salad for lunch with some protein. And for dinner, I'll make more vegetables and some meat. I've also tried to cut down on gluten in my diet, just for a little while to see if I feel better. I do still have a few drinks with friends on weekends but I'm definitely more cautious.

I'm not producing much stomach acid from the PPIs, so I also take some apple cider vinegar capsules before a meal, and I feel like it does help with my digestion. I used to drink Bragg's organic ACV diluted it in water but it was too hard on my teeth after a while. Now I use it to mix in salad dressings. I also drank aloe vera juice for a while to heal my esophagus.

I hope this is all working, but it's very possible that I'll have all the symptoms come back once I stop using PPIs. It's the uncertainty that really worries me. I'm pretty nervous about my scope because I'm scared of what they might possibly find. Doesn't help that I'm kind of a hypochondriac. I'm really happy to see how all of this is working out for you, and it gives me hope that I'll eventually recover too :)
Posted 3/17/2016 1:34 AM (GMT 0)
I wanted to follow up to offer some more information and ask a question of the community.

I have noticed over the last month that I have been getting better and paying really close attention to what is going on with the changes that have been happening above.

I have noticed that when I started to take the HCL pills to help with digestion, I had less gas coming from the rear as food was getting digested better, but I also noticed a significant increase in gas coming up causing me to burp a lot immediately after I ate. I surely can deal with the trade off. I still get a little gas on the back end but not as much as before.

I also figured out recently in the past couple weeks that anytime I do notice I have a little heartburn come up that it is ALWAYS caused by gas, all I have to do is get it to come out and the heartburn immediately goes away! Usually all I do is the exercise linked in the 1st post and if that doesn't get it, then by sitting down and leaning forward will cause the gas to burp up and heartburn is gone.

I am wondering, how many people are having trouble with gas as well as with the heartburn and if you try this method, does it help you any?
Posted 3/26/2016 2:30 AM (GMT 0)
Paulie,

Thanks for posting this thread. Your situation and mine sound remarkably similar. I'm 37, 6' 2" and a recent 197 (down 20 lbs since starting a new diet this year an full paleo since March 1 after reading Kressers' book and website). Like you, I spent most of my 20's and early 30's destroying my gut and only started eating somewhat healthy since I met my wife 4 years ago. I've been on and off ppis since 2005 and beginning about 8/9 months ago, have had a chronic cough and shortness of breath. I went to a laryngologist for the cough who upped my dosage to 80 mg of protonix 2x day and Zantac at night. It did little to help my cough and screwed up my digestion big time so I took to the net and came across Kressers site and book. I weaned off all meds in February and as of March, am med free and 100% paleo.

My supplement regimen is high dose (500 mg) magnesium, b12 sublingual, vitamin c 1000 mg, vitamin d 4000mg, l-glutamine, bone broths, DGL, probiotic and Betaine HCL.

When I started the Betaine HCL I was burping up acid still due to rebound but this stopped after a few days when I upped the dosage to 3-4 pills with each meal. This is usually sufficient but occasionally I still burp for awhile after a bigger meal. I wonder myself if I'm getting better. Sounds like if your noticing that reducing pills is helping you're on the right track. How would you describe this new heartburn that lead you to back off on the dosage? I'm not there yet; in fact, I'm thinking I might need another pill or two as the burping is back. I definitely noticed a lot less flatulence upon starting this protocol. I've also noticed my cough is slowly diminishing as are my breathing issues but still an issue. I've read it can take months for these symptoms to resolve so I'm digging in for the long haul.

I'm curious about your enzymes your taking as well. Have been able to cut down on these along with the HCL? I haven't tried the enzymes yet but was thinking of adding them to my regimen.

I also ordered a wedge pillow that I sleep with at night that's helped as well.

Have you considered your lpr could be due to SIBO or candida? Not sure about this myself but I'm seeing the doc Wed to see what she thinks. I plan on getting tested for h pylori as well. I feel like gas coming up is from bacterial/fungal fermentation and as long as that's happening, there's an issue with dysbiosis.

Take care
Posted 3/26/2016 5:20 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Chiguy,

Thanks for the reply, I was wondering when someone would join in on the fun. Yes our situations sound similar, and I think for many, not all but many, a solid change in diet and a few supplements along with the will to stick through the rebound and adjustment period, which sucks by the way and I think many may be able to heal themselves quite a bit as well. It just takes time and some discomfort to get through as your body adjusts. I know that not everyone's situation is the same, and not everyone has GERD related issues from the same thing but I am willing to bet that a good portion of us got in this situation from eating the typical "american diet" of garbage foods.

I am very happy to hear you are off the meds, that's awesome. I do also take ZMA at night, which is 30mg of Zinc, 450 of Magnesium and a small dose of 10mg of B6 which I believe only aids in absorption of the other two minerals as it's a very small dose. I take this because I work out several times a week, and this aids with recovery and also is a fantastic sleep aid. I take it at night right before bed.

The burping immediately after eating, I had that pretty bad when I first started the HCL pills, it lasted a couple months. I think it is a byproduct of your body starting to digest again, but still not enough acid, it's up to you as you know your body better than me, but when I was at that point, I continued increasing the HCL every 4 - 5 days until I was able to digest and not feel bloated, not get gas and just get that feel good feeling after eating a meal instead of that miserable feeling we all know too well.

The difference in the heartburn when the acid is too high is hard to describe, but you'll know it when it happens. It is more acute, more of a true burning feeling. The acid burn from GERD is more of an achy burn, too much acid is more of a real liquid acidic burn. If it happens, just take one acid reducer like Tums or Rolaids to back it down a notch, or baking soda some people use. It'll back off after a quick acid reducer and you'll feel ok right away since you raised the PH level.

As for my enzymes, the ones I get from Whole Foods are expensive, I buy the Digest Gold ones. They work well though, I have no desire to back them down. I don't mind taking one pill each time I eat a meal. I don't take them in the morning with my greek yogurt though, no need.

Yes it took months to subside but you are on the right track, the wedge pillow is worth every penny. I bought an adjustable bed, but I wanted one for years and finally was able to afford it and got a great deal on the financing with 0% for 6 years, can't go wrong with that. :) Just make sure you get a stiff wedge, soft ones lose shape real fast and aren't worth it after a couple weeks. I had one from Bed Bath and Beyond, it only lasted a few weeks, then it was flat.

As for SIBO or candida, I'm not sure. I guess I could get tested for those. I know I do not have h.pylori, I had a scope done recently and test was negative for that. The gas coming up also can be from fermentation if the acid in your stomach is not strong enough, then the lower valve will NOT open until your stomach reaches a certain acid level, with those of us with not enough acid, food stays in there WAY too long. I know this for a fact, as I have vomited up food before that I ate 8 - 10 hours ago, there should be no way that is possible. No way food should still be in the stomach that long that is under "normal circumstances", with normal acid levels, but it is very possible with us with low stomach acid.

Definitely keep reading up on stuff, and talk with your doc. Make sure your Doc is knowledgeable, a lot of them are not. If all they suggest PPIs then go find another doc. They are just regurgitating the same old crap taught from the DSM which has been heavily influenced by Big Farma.


I wanted to also add an update to my situation and a tip I noticed.

I have found that if I get a little heartburn at night, rather than taking a Tums or toughing it out. I either do the exercise mentioned in the 1st post or if it persists past that, eating a greek yogurt does quite well. Now keep in mind, this is empty stomach / gas heartburn, not heartburn left from dinner. If I still feel my dinner in my stomach or burp up flavorful smells of dinner telling me that my food is still in my stomach, then I take an HCL pill.

I have had to take a couple HCL pills now and again, since I've been pushing my diet a bit to see what I can tolerate. I ordered some pasta the other night from a restaurant. It was penne a la vodka with grilled chicken, tasted so good, but hurt so bad. I know from the past few weeks, pasta sauce gets me burning. If I eat a slice of pizza which we all know is not a good food for most of us, but I love it and will never give it up! If I eat it, I know I need an HCL pill for 1 slice, 2 pills for 2 slices. I don't eat more than that anymore. Just enough for a small meal. However I noticed a small meal of pasta, takes 3 pills. Just some things I've learned. Most other meals don't take any pills anymore.

I eat rotisserie chicken, steamed carrots and mixed fruit for lunch several times a week, no pills, just 1 enzyme and I feel great every time.

In the early morning when I'm getting ready for work, sometimes I get empty stomach heartburn, but once I eat my greek yogurt, I'm fine after. I pretty much never get midday heartburn anymore. I only really get it after dinner if I either lay down too early after I eat basically meaning I ate too late in the evening for some reason which I try not to do most days.

If my sentences are a bit run on here, please forgive me I wrote this reply at 1:30am. Good night all and be well.
Posted 3/29/2016 8:06 PM (GMT 0)
Hey Paulie,

Thanks for the tips. So an interesting couple of days for me. First, I did go out and grab some of those digestive enzymes last night. I tried them with last night's dinner and will do so again tonight. I'd been having a stomach ache when I ate the last few days so I decided to tweak my regimen a little bit and back down on the HCL tabs. At lunch yesterday I took none and only one at dinner WITH NO REFLUX and felt fine (no stomach ache). I'd been taking about 4 per meal and then now it seems I can get along fine without them. I'm thinking that I'd been overlooking the signs that I didn't require them anymore so that's good news. Maybe my stomach is producing acid again. I had some bbque for lunch today with some fatty brisquet and brussel sprouts that caused me to cough a bit and need to clear my throat for about an hour after eating so I know I'm not completely healed yet but I'm headed in the right direction. No burping or bloating at all which really surprised me.

Unlike you, I went full paleo and haven't cheated (intentionally) since the beginning of March. Maybe a couple errors here and there when I didn't quite know what I was eating when eating out but pretty clean otherwise. I'm giving myself until the end of May before I start adding foods like bread, pasta and pizza back in. I can already start seeing some of the positive benefits so I don't want to relapse now. I'm thinking that the B12 supplementation that I've been doing over the past few weeks has been one of the biggest drivers of progress. I tested at 326 pg with in within "normal range" but according to Kresser's post on B12 deficiency, that lower range may be too low and many more people are deficient than it would seem. I'm gonna get my levels checked again in a few months. My symptoms seem to match those of a person with B12 deficiency.

You're right, the wedge pillow has been a godsend. I got one of the more expensive, memory foam ones and I've been sleeping much better with it. Maybe one day I'll be able to sleep like a normal person but for now it's an easy fix.

I have to say that I'm pissed I didn't bother to research this stuff years ago and I let things get to a point that I was coughing and burning my throat with every meal. Looking forward to getting some more testing done with the doc tomorrow and (hopefully) hone in on a cure for this. Take care.
Posted 3/31/2016 4:09 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Chiguy,

Glad to hear back from you. I am excited to hear a follow up on how the enzymes are working for you now that you have been using them for a few days. What brand are you using?

I'm interested to find out more about the B12 link, do you have any links or info about that? I'll check my recent and past blood tests to see what my B12 level is. I get my blood drawn every few months or so to keep an eye on things. I have other problems with my thyroid and hormone levels.

Don't be too upset about not researching earlier, much of this type of info such as Kris's website was only posted a few years ago, so you wouldn't have likely found much worthy information.

Please follow up with your results. As for me, not much different, doing well. Small bouts of burn, but nothing bad at all. I haven't touched Tums in a week or two. My breakfast and lunch are real stable, same stuff everyday. I like what i eat so I don't mind eating it all the time. My dinner is sometimes good, most of the time not as good as I want it to be, but if I get home late I eat what is made for dinner or snack on something random. I need to work on that, but so far no major issues in the past few weeks.


I'm really interested if anyone else has tried any suggestions in this thread, and if so how is it working for you?
Posted 4/1/2016 3:25 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Paulie and all, enjoying reading this thread. Back here after being... well, everywhere seems like, since this started for me in September 2015. Tested for celiac, HP, gallbladder, upper scope, barium series, same old stuff we all get tested for I guess when it's "just" reflux. Glad to finally find someone with advice who isn't selling anything! Like you, Paulie, I trashed my system pretty hard for many years - sweets, the cafeteria in college with an endless supply of everything. I cleaned up a bit when I started grad school, didn't buy much in the way of junk food at the grocery store so I wouldn't be tempted at home, but I guess the weekends of beer (lots), burgers, and wings did the job anyways. I just wish I knew what "GERD" could be, I always thought it was a little heartburn for 20 minutes after eating chili dogs or mexican food, pop an acid blocker before the meal or a TUMS after and you're good to go, right? I'm a health care professional, and no one ever spelled the reality out for us. Irritating to say the least. This hit me out of nowhere, a warning shot would've been nice! The PA at my specialist's office just switched me to Protonix, I've been on Prilosec/Nexium OTC previously.

So, hearing some love for the Betaine HCL here, any comparison to apple cider vinegar capsules? I just got some of those tonight, on a whim. Didn't know there was such a thing til I saw them on the shelf when I was looking for a probiotic and B12, which I obviously also bought tonight. I certainly would love to get off the PPI's, as I've had only mediocre relief with them. But I'm also scared to go off them and risk developing Barrett's. Might also like to try the digestive enzymes. My trouble is, the post-mealtime aspect of reflux isn't the clear troubling factor for me, chest pain and nausea seem to come and go randomly for me. Not much correlation to when I ate or what I ate.
Posted 4/1/2016 3:56 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Tooth, glad you shared your story. I commend you on your looking for more information and more answers. I personally can't stand vinegar in any of it's forms. I absolutely can't stand the smell or taste. I tried the organic ACV but just could not get past the taste and smell, so I have no tried the pills.

I do read however they are a pretty good alternative to HCL, it is a strong acid and will lower the acid in your stomach to help with digestion. Not sure how well it will work in comparison to HCL, but it's worth a shot, just follow the directions with them. ACV is no joke. Please report back on your experience with it.
Posted 4/3/2016 2:12 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Paulie B

I developed delayed gastric emptying from taking a PPI (omeprazole 20mg). Delayed gastric emptying (gastroparesis), is where food stays in the stomach too long which can cause your GERD to be much worse. There are also other symptoms with delayed gastric emptying such as excessive burping, bloating, malabsorption of nutrients, nausea, etc... It is a misconception by many doctors that you have to be vomiting to have delayed gastric emptying. Gastroenterologist who specialize in gastroparesis know differently.

Most GI doctors do not realize PPIs can cause delayed gastric emptying. When they cannot find out what has caused the delayed gastric emptying they say your have idiopathic gastroparesis, (no known cause) and then give you more medications and increase your PPI you've already been taking.

The delayed gastric emptying slowly reversed once I weaned off all acid suppressant medication. but I had to go through 3 months of acid rebound (hyper-secretion of acid) which is a withdrawal symptom from PPIs. While the delayed gastric emptying was slowly reversing, I chewed a lot of gum after my meals. I also mixed lemon juice in 4 oz of water with my meals since I do not tolerate the apple cider vinegar well. I've also recently been using Swedish bitters ten minutes before I eat.

There are several studies that link PPIs to delayed gastric emptying. But they have been swept under the rug. I have documented my recovery along with those studies that link PPIs to delayed gastric emptying at the link below below:

https://www.inspire.com/CAGU/journal/ppi-warning-gastroparesis-delayed-gastric-emptying-proton-pump-inhibitor/
Posted 4/12/2016 9:35 PM (GMT 0)
Hey Paulie B,

Just checking in on the thread to see how progress has been. First, to answer your question from before regarding the B12, I had some memory/concentration issues and some neurological symptoms that I believe was a subclinical B12 deficiency. I've been taking the sub-lingual B12 supplements and they seemed to have helped in that department. I don't really have any info on GERD and B12 other than what I've read on Kresser's website. I think the low stomach acid causes malabsorbtion of B12 and so my long term PPI use probably played a role in that.

Regarding the GERD and LPR. I'm not quite sure what to think about this regimen now. I've had some really good stretches and then today, out of nowhere I get some really bad symptoms. I've been dedicated to paleo for 6 weeks now and thought I'd made some good progress but seem to have had a setback recently here. Is this your (anyone else's) experience (i.e. ups and downs of recovery)? I'm still taking the Betaine HCL with my bigger meals and some things have gotten better but some things have gotten worse. For instance, I never really had any stomach discomfort when I was on the PPIs but now my stomach feels pretty sensitive. I also get bloated now and again but there's no specific trigger food. I usually have two boiled eggs for breakfast or fruit with no problems but today, I had eggs and a banana and I've been a mess all day. I also suffered more from LPR symptoms (shortness of breath, chronic cough, hoarseness) in the past but now I'm having more heartburn type symptoms like fullness adn pressure/burning in the sternum area. Probably not a good sign but maybe this is all part of getting better??? Some of the LPR symptoms are better but I don't want to trade one problem for another but it's hard to know what the right thing to do is since everyone's different and there's a lot of contradictory advice out there. I read on one thread on here that a guy doing paleo said it took him close to 3 months to really start feeling better and healing so that'll be my benchmark for all this I guess. Anyway, love to hear how others are doing. Thanks!
Posted 4/24/2016 8:18 PM (GMT 0)
Hey CAGU Thank you for joining the discussion and welcome back Chiguy.

I renamed the thread to account for the goal of the discussion about healing to some degree naturally and what we have experienced along the route.


CAGU, thank you for the information posted above, I too experienced Delayed Gastric Emptying while on PPIs. That is one of the things that tipped me off that something was drastically wrong with using that medication.

My experience was this:
I ate a typical dinner one night around 7pm(ish), consisting of chicken, baked potato and mixed steamed vegetables, no heartburn as I was on PPIs at the time. I woke up the next morning I took a morning shower because I wanted to rinse my sinuses with a saline nasal rinse and I find it much easier to do in the shower. Well i guess that morning i got a little saline rinse down my throat and gagged which caused me to heave, and I got a refund on my dinner from the night before. Now there is no way I should still have stomach contents from dinner 10 hours later, no way no how. That was alarming and informing all in one. That would explain why no matter how healthy I was eating, I was not able to absorb vitamins and minerals of my food. I was working out at the gym 4 - 5 days a week and killing it in there with no gains. I was basically starved of nutrients due to the lack of stomach acid to break down the food and causing delayed gastric emptying.


Chiguy,

I feel you on the LPR, that has really upset me in the past few months. It feels like to me that I've traded one problem for another as you have stated. However given the trade off, I can handle my LPR over the scorching sun burning feeling of acid reflux any day.

I would love to know why I (and you) are experiencing the LPR now that we are producing acid but not feeling the acid burn in the lower esophagus. That seems odd to me, why have a burning higher up in the throat area but not lower where the acid actually is.

To help the pressure I have found doing the exercise mentioned above to help with that everytime. I also am VERY careful not to overeat. I have found that eating foods with sugar in them will cause bloating, pressure and gas. This is due to the imbalance of bacteria that we have in out gut from not having stomach acid for so many years. You have to address the gut bacteria issue or you will not get much comfort.

Update on my status:
I have found that most days I still am not needing to take any HCL pills. It depends mostly on what I eat. If I eat pizza or pasta as mentioned previously I for sure, without fail must take 2 -3 HCL pills. I know this is a trigger food and not recommend for us to eat but tough crap, I'm not giving it up! :) I just adjust how I eat it, I make sure to take my HCL as soon as I start eating along with a digestive enzyme.

I also make sure not to eat dinner late that night to provide enough time while in the upright position to digest the best. If I eat later around 8pm, I have trouble no matter what I eat, even with laying down at an incline. I guess my LES is able to keep up as long as I am standing or sitting upright, but since I do have a confirmed 6cm hernia, it's no match for laying down after eating, which makes sense.

I still have LPR symptoms pretty much daily but they are not as bad as the center of my chest feeling like the surface of the sun.

I do find that eating anything beyond simple paleo inspired meals does produce some level of discomfort, weather it be bloating, gas or loose bowel movements. I still push my boundaries some days in order to eat comfort foods I enjoy. I have noticed that when I do so, I usually will accompany that meal with an HCL pill to aid in digestion.

I find that letting all the gas out makes for a happy day, don't hold in any burps or farts, let em go, hopefully with no one around, but don't hold them in. That is what has got a lot of us here in the first place, holding in gas and causing a back pressure to herniate the LES and then comes GERD. Now I know that's not everyone's story, but it's a large bunch of us.
Posted 6/4/2017 4:55 AM (GMT 0)
I'm just checking in if anyone follow the above mentioned protocol in my OP? I was doing great for about a year until earlier this year when I fell off the wagon so to speak and found myself indulging in whatever I wanted to eat and back in the same situation. I have been working on implementing my regiment again and just wondered if anyone else found it helpful. I can't wait to be healthy again, this time there is no more indulgence when I get to a good spot. I can't believe how easy it was to forget when you can actually eat anything without trouble like a "normal" digesting person.
Posted 6/5/2017 3:23 PM (GMT 0)
I've had good improvement with probiotics, the strong ones 30 to 100 billion l-glutamine, DGL, zinc carnosine, bone broth, and slippery elm powder.
Posted 6/5/2017 4:52 PM (GMT 0)
Hey guys. I have a thread on here explaining my entire situation, but like you I am testing different things. I tried all of the PPI's except two and they did not seem to help, H2's did not cure anything either. I am trying digestive enzymes and a probiotic now, on day 2. I am sipping kiefer I type this message. I know I am getting older, but having this feeling like my larynx is raw is getting bothersome. With my perfect diet now and exercise I cannot believe I would have this issue. Yeah I did some things wrong but compared to other people I know that eat like complete crap, my diet is amazing.

It is hard to know from day to day what my throat will feel like, but it is never normal anymore. I would love to get a glimmer of hope that it will be cured.
Posted 6/7/2017 2:55 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Tommyc for posting, I am going to follow my regimen above with the addition of following this 3-5 day gut flora treatment:

http://drjockers.com/regain-your-terrain-digestive-health-protocol/

and here is another pretty good link about the same treatment:

https://draxe.com/leaky-gut-diet-treatment/

So this week I am going to start the 3 - 5 day bone broth treatment. I've never had bone broth before, but bought some organic bone broth yesterday at Whole Foods and gave it a taste. It's not terrible but it's not tasty either. I am going to mix in a little regular chicken broth tomorrow to help improve the flavor a little as well as try adding a few carrots and celery to the broth and cook them for a few hours until they are soft and easily digestible. I believe that will improve the flavor greatly and make it much more manageable to drink for several days straight without sacrificing the integrity of the healing protocol.

I will post afterward and let you guys know how it goes. If anyone has any suggestions or comments on this treatment, please let me know.
Posted 6/9/2017 12:13 PM (GMT 0)
Ive been using 625 mg HCL Capsules for a while now.

I used to take 2 capsules before a meal then it started to burn so now I take only 1 cap before a meal.
My meals are usually small protein oriented meals every 2-3 hours and eat a non citric fruit like an apple or a mango between meals. I seem to feel way better taking hcl with my meals concluding I have low stomach acid.

I've taken enzyme capsules before and it seems it didn't work for me. Iv'e tested taking enzyme pills by itself and it didn't do much for my gerd. I've also tested taking hcl by itself and I felt better. Lastly, I took both of them at the same time and I would get slight gerd. I've read online that enzymes are alkaline (this is why acid doesn't burn your intestines because enzymes are released before coming to the intestines). Maybe that's why it was counter intuitive to use hcl and enzymes at the same time but I'm not too sure. I stopped taking enzymes because I think I don't have an enzyme problem but an acid problem.

I tried DGL and It seemed to kind of coat the esophagus. I didn't see much difference tho in my gerd symptoms but I continued anyways because they tasted good. Other than that no drastic changes so I stopped taking them.

I'm asking the same question to myself as you are "is my stomach finally producing enough acid?"
YES, I think I am producing more acid. Back then when I took 1 capsule I would still get bad gerd so I had to take 2. Now, I can take 1 and feel okay. Also, back then when I ate fruits between meals I would get really bad gerd. Now, I can eat fruits with slight gerd or sometimes without gerd at all.

Some things I've noticed that Iv'e changed was 1) chewing 30 times before swallowing 2) heavily reduce water intake during meals 3) sleeping more and reducing stress 4) sitting up if you have to lay after eating

Back when I had my gerd the worse, even if I took 2 hcl capsules I would still get gerd UNTIL I implemented those 4 things above

I heard digestive bitters help you produce more acid (which is scientifically true), but I never tried it. Maybe that is what I am missing? Also, I heard taking vitamins help you produce more acid too (building blocks for acid production).

anyways this ended up being too long. Hope everyone of you gets healed tbh gerd sooooooo lame.

Post Edited (k1m11) : 6/9/2017 6:16:15 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 2/3/2019 4:44 PM (GMT 0)
Wow, it's been a year and a half since I last posted. Well here's a quick recap:

June 2017:
I posted last that I was going to start a bone broth regimen. I did that for about a month actually. It was quite easy for me since I don't mind eating the same foods over and over if I like them. I ended up using Kettle & Fire brand bone broth. It uses all organic ingredients and actually tastes really good unlike most other bone broths however it's twice the price as the others. I would make a soup with it. I would add in baked chicken flavored with only a little salt and pepper coating in olive oil. I would also steam celery, carrots and fry up some minced onions and fresh garlic to through in the soup. Tasted like the best chicken soup i've had. I really enjoyed it. It was easy to digest, didn't really need any HCL for it.

August / September / October 2017:
I began some research on single fruit and multi fruit fasting for a few days. It's a process where for some period of time, usually a few days you eat only 1 fruit, or in the case of multi fruit you only eat fruits. You can drink as much water as you like, and eat the fruits you've chosen, either 1 or all fruits. Sounds odd at first, but research it, it is quite legit. The idea is that you basically allow your system to focus on digesting just 1 thing or 1 type of similar things which your body gets very efficient at doing. When you can actually digest this simple meal quickly, your body can absorb the energy and nutrients quickly and get back to doing other housekeeping tasks like healing. Keep following me here... So after a few days of eating just fruits, trust me you need to eat a lot of them to keep your caloric intake up, you will begin to "heal" in ways you never felt before. Sounds odd, it's legit. If you have an old injury it will begin to ache. This is because your body is cannibalizing the scare tissue and replacing it with health tissue. The reason is that digestion is EXPENSIVE on your body, very expensive and time consuming. When you only eat a very simple quick to digest diet your body has time, and I mean lots of time to do other things like heal properly. Don't believe me? Give it a try for a few days, it's not hard and won't hurt you. You can eat until your heart is content on fruit, you will have plenty of vitamins and minerals and who doesn't like fruit? After a few days to a week, the aches will set in, and boy will it ache like you just injured it all over again. Want the pains to stop? Eat a solid meal of any other food, proteins and fats. The aches will stop in an hour or two once your body stops healing and goes back to digesting more complicated foods, it's that legit. Research it. So, where did I end up with this? Well I have a 20 year old herniated L4 / L5 disk in my back that is no longer herniated but once a back injury always a back injury. I can't take the pain after a couple days, it hurts that much while it's healing it. So i caved and ate food. I've tried it again a couple times but the pain always gets me. However each time I concluded the fruit fast, I'd feel energetic and digesting very well for a week or so afterward.

Around the same time as above, June - December 2017:
I began researching intermittent fasting to assist in losing weight and expediting healing. I used this technique while eating the above foods and over the course of the bone broth fast, I lost around 20 - 30 lbs. I got down from around 210lbs - 220 lbs in my original post to 185 lbs. I can't remember the exact weight i was at when I started bone broth regimen but it was somewhere around 210ish. I used intermittent fasting for two reasons: 1 it is fantastic at helping you loose weight and 2 it gives your stomach time to heal. The form of intermittent fasting that I used is that I would close my window of the times i ate food from around noon each day to around 5 or 6pm. Outside that time frame I'd only drink water. It's hard for the first few days but your body quickly adapts and then it's second nature, not even a struggle. It's easy to start with a larger window of time and just shrink it down every few days as you get comfortable. I still continue the intermittent fasting today as it has helped me contain my weight lose and help reduce late night gerd problems as I almost never eat after 5pm or 6pm. I had to put a few lbs back on as my wife thought i was too skinny at 185lbs being that i'm 6'2". Now I am at like 195lbs and need to hit the gym.

So let's get to 2018, that was a crazy busy one for me at work, I really fell off of going to the gym 3 - 5 days a week to 0 days a week all year. It's sad I know but at the end of the day bills have to be paid so I had to work. My gerd issues have returned as I have not been exercising and have not been keeping up with my supplements listed in the earlier discussions. I now know that these supplements help heal but they can't really be stopped once you feel good, you need to maintain them. The ones I have tried that appear to have helped are things like: Slippery Elm, Marshmellow root, DGL & ZMA. I also need to return to using my digestive enzymes to help digest food every time I eat. The only thing I remained on was the HCL however believe it or not, I take about 12 - 15 of them every meal for the past year and in the last couple months I feel like it has stopped working almost all together. Sounds odd, but I can eat a simple meal, take 12 HCL pills and still need 4 - 6 more an hour or two later because I'm not digesting my meal. Didn't know that was possible, I've googled it but was not able to find others with the same situation.

But this year wasn't all a wash. There was some good that came of it. I began doing some juicing and have further cut down the little crap food i had left. I rarely ever eat pizza, maybe once every other month, and if I do, it's quality fresh stuff, not delivery crap. I also rarely eat meat anymore, only chicken or fish a couple times a week as beef and pork are much harder to digest for me so I only eat them once every month or so. My diet at this point consists mainly of fruits, vegetables, chicken, juices (both cold pressed and organic store bought). It's a pretty limited diet but I do have a few snacks weekly so I'm not perfect but it's an improvement.

Now into 2019:
It's February in 2019 and I'm frustrated. Frustrated with myself that I've had some great success over the last 3 years on this journey but I'm still struggling to dial in the right recipe of food, supplements and exercise to keep the results long term all while balancing real life with a stressful career and family life with kids. I don't eat much these days, my meals are small and my metabolism over the past 2 years has slowed down from losing weight, not working out and just not eating much. I feel like I'm starving though, not from not eating food, but from not absorbing nutrients. It's a different type of starving, one that's not quenched by eating. I can eat but still be hungry because my body is craving the nutrients but not absorbing them due to my digestion being whacked. I'm going to start juicing again today for at least a few weeks to reset. I'm also going to being taking my supplements I talked about before that appeared to have helped restore digestion function in the past.

As soon as I finish this post, I'm headed to the juice bar to grab some fresh cold pressed juice for the next two days. I am also going to hit the super market and grab some fruits to juice myself for the rest of the week.

I'd love to know if anyone has actually read this long winded post or entire thread and has any questions, comments or followups. It's been quite a journey and I will keep my updates coming over the coming weeks. I know the things I've done before helped, it was just a matter of picking out what helped the most and what is sustainable long term. I'm now motivated more than ever to try to get this figured out.
Posted 2/3/2019 4:48 PM (GMT 0)
Sorry once I posted I noticed my first sentence "quick recap" I don't think there was anything quick about that last post.
Posted 2/8/2019 11:41 AM (GMT 0)
So a few days in and I juiced for 3 days and i felt great. No GERD related symptoms and only needed 3 HCL pills when I'd drink the juice 4 - 5 times a day. Was able to sleep laying flat without issues.

Yesterday and the day before i introduced solid food again and right back to GERD issues, trouble sleeping and digesting. At this point, as I expected I am going to have to stay with juice and maybe solid fruit to limit symptoms and try to get better.
Posted 2/10/2019 5:27 PM (GMT 0)
@Paulie B. — what was the root cause of your GERD? I saw your previous post indicated thyroid issues. Do you have autoimmune thyroiditis (e.g. elevated thyroid antibodies as seen in Hashimoto’s patients)? I have Hashimoto’s, celiac disease and just two years ago, was diagnosed with Chronic Autoimmune Gastritis per gastric biopsies. My repeat endoscopy revealed a healed small intestine so my celiac disease is in remission due to a strict gluten free diet. Celiac disease can cause GERD, and you can develop it at anytime. So, even though it was ruled out a few years ago for you, you still can develop it or maybe intestinal damage was missed. After all, the small intestine is larger than a tennis court if spread out.

I have been researching the AIP diet (Autoimmune Paleo) because I have too many allergic issues reactions when taking medications. A small study was done at Scripps in San Diego to test the diet on Inflammatory Bowel patients UC and Crohn’s). This tiny study showed a 78% remission rate in just weeks! Now they are conducting a tiny study testing Hashimoto’s which is strongly linked to Autoimmune Gastritis (AIG) Scripps had to crowd fund this study because no one wants to financially back food.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/

My AIG ebbs and flows. My gluten free diet is very restrictive in that I avoid processed foods and never eat out. Why? A celiac flare up can last me months and triggers old and new autoimmune disorders. I do not want a fourth autoimmune diagnosis. My Diet keeps my AIG and Hashimoto’s in check. Please consider the AIP or consider trialing it. Consider getting retested for celiac disease.

Food can help heal.
Posted 2/19/2019 1:08 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Paulie B,

Great thread here. Read whole thing start to finish. A week ago I had a bad reaction to medication at hospital that destroyed my stomach been having horrendous reflux to point I've lost 10 pounds (already underweight) and literally didn't sleep first 3 days straight.

I'm big into functional medicine (same branch of medicine Chris Kresser practices) and have been looking into therapies to heal this freaking GERD.

Somebody said...
I began some research on single fruit and multi fruit fasting for a few days. It's a process where for some period of time, usually a few days you eat only 1 fruit, or in the case of multi fruit you only eat fruits....
I've tried it again a couple times but the pain always gets me. However each time I concluded the fruit fast, I'd feel energetic and digesting very well for a week or so afterward.

Interesting note on the fruit fast. Sounds very similar concept to the "elemental diet", ever heard of it?

Its a liquid diet where all your carbs/proteins/fats are pre-broken down in a lab (think instead of eating chicken and your stomach breaks the amino acids down from the flesh into a form absorbable by intestine the amino acids are already in a digestible form). Basically you get all your calories/nutrients without your gut having to do an ounce of work and give it time to rest and heal. Pretty cool stuff, I'm actually on one right now and I've had near zero acid reflux over past 2 days since I've started (which is pretty remarkable from where I was).

Make sure you get a semi-elemental and not full elemental because it tastes better (and semi-elemental is hard enough as it is).

Somebody said...
Sounds odd, but I can eat a simple meal, take 12 HCL pills and still need 4 - 6 more an hour or two later because I'm not digesting my meal. Didn't know that was possible, I've googled it but was not able to find others with the same situation.

Interesting. Thats a lot of HCL. If your stomach is not emptying it might be worth getting a workup done to check for gastric motility (I think the valve that empties into intestine can malfunction.. has this test done once years ago).

Somebody said...
It's February in 2019 and I'm frustrated. Frustrated with myself that I've had some great success over the last 3 years on this journey but I'm still struggling to dial in the right recipe of food, supplements and exercise to keep the results long term all while balancing real life with a stressful career and family....

I feel like I'm starving though, not from not eating food, but from not absorbing nutrients. It's a different type of starving, one that's not quenched by eating.

I know its tough man, been struggling with chronic disease for 3 years now but gotta keep eye on horizon and never give up trying to work to get to bottom of everything and succeed.

Its tough to say "oh you need to get xyz looked into/fixed" but here are a few ideas that come to mind since you've yet responded.

1. H. Pylori - You mentioned the Chris Kresser articles earlier and said you tried everything but you never mentioned checking H. Pylori off the list which is well documented in causing stomach/reflux issues. You can get tested for this but I was talking with my doctor recently and he says he just puts patients on an H. Pylori antibiotic protocol with herbal antibiotics and see's if they respond (not too much risk in OTC herbal antibiotics).

If you have an overgrowth in your small intestine (SIBO) that's causing your motility issues (food taking hours to digest) the antibiotics will clear that as well. Idk but maybe your motility issues aren't your stomach failing to empty as much as your small intestine failing to keep food moving.

You can also look into promotility compounds to help speed up peristalsis as well after the antibiotics if they work.

2. Diet could be worth playing around with as the previous commentor mentions. Doing a 2-3 week trial on diets such as AIP paleo, Low Fodmap, Very Low Carb Diet (I know Chris Kresser reccomends this for reflux), and GAPS/SCD diet could be worth a trial to see if you don't further pinpoint some problem foods to avoid.

3. I was going through some research studies today and came across a few interesting finds:
A) Clinical Trial Reviewing Natural vs. Pharmaceutical GERD treatment
This one is pretty interesting. Over 300 GERD patients took either Omeprazole or a herbal/vitamin mixture (exact compounds are listed in the study) and the Omeprazole patients had 65% regression while herbal/vitamin patients had 100% regression of symptoms.

I suppose the possibility lies that the herbal mixture still suppresses stomach acid and is a bad long term treatment (just like PPI drugs are) but may still be worth trying out.

B) Iberogast Review
Ever heard of Iberogast? its a german compound of 9 herbal compounds thats been surprisingly extensively researched for the vague catchall of "indigestion". I haven't looked into this one as much but its on my list of therapies to try if my frontlines don't work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for me here is my list of treatments/therapies I'm doing/trying out to address this issue. Anyone reading please read over the list and see if anything I missed or should add, I'd love to know!

Performed Therapies
1. RenewLife Natural Heartburn Aid - 1 half dose = unsuccessful
2. Zantac (post meal b4 bed) - 1 pill for 3 days = successful for days 1+2 not 3rd
3. Elemental diet - 95% cleared reflux first 2 days but --> unconfirmed post diet
4. ACV - X2 daily = seems to make worse

Remaining
1. Very low carb diet (1 week)
2. Gaps/SCD diet (1 week)
3. Zantac (pre eating - b4 bed if needed)
4. Tums (as needed)
5. Herbal Antibiotics (H. Pylori)
6. Iberogast
7. HCL+ Enzymes
8. Dietary melatonin supplement referenced in study HERE
9. Aloe Juice (one week trial)
10. Bone Broth (a few weeks)
11. DGLicorice

Good luck to everyone. Look forward to hearing back from a few of you.

Also @Cyclinglady,

Somebody said...
I have been researching the AIP diet (Autoimmune Paleo) because I have too many allergic issues reactions when taking medications.

Sorry to hear that. If you have an autoimmune issue I highly recommend AIP diet I've personally known a few people with remarkable results for their autoimmune condition. Def give it a 3 week go and see if you respond.

I personally tried it for 6 weeks and had no success BUT.... my disease isn't autoimmune (yet haha).

Cheers everyone,
-Rob
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