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Posted 11/22/2009 4:02 PM (GMT 0)
Ah!  Vestabula,

That brings up another memory, big one, of my fiance/boyfriend dying in my arms (at home) from melanoma.  He died at 50 pounds, really hung in there, geez and wow!  He could barely wave me over to him, but he did when he was ready to go, I knew the day he was going and (even though he wasn't religious) called his favorite preacher friend asking if he would come over (we went to their church once) and he came.  He non-verbally asked me to sit him up (didn't want to leave laying down - he was a toughie :o) and I sat him up, his neck was very, very stiff, I talked with him (He couldn't talk anymore) telling him how much I love him.  I saw his eyes, beautiful green eyes, fixate, still there, though, but fixated and I knew it was The light, I just new and  told him to stay with it and follow it, I love him and always will, will definitely see him again, follow that light you see, follow, follow .  . .  and then I literally saw, like, a thickened air is the only way I can explain it leave through his eyes.  I know it was his spirit leaving his body and yes, he was gone from his physical body. 

His best friend came over that night and we just sat there in the dark on the floor, him on one side, me on the other, and all of a sudden a tiny white ball was racing around the room - we both saw it.  I knew he was there.

When I got back from his family's homes in Arizona and back to the old apartment, I walked in and straight out the back door and there in the clouds was the perfect formation of the OK sign, even showing a sleeve, like that of his pajamas in the sky.  I took a picture of it back then and sent it to his family.  This was how he communicated with me.  A weak OK sign when I'd ask questions to see what he needed until I got it right.

Anyways, I hope this is a helpful story and not a scary story.  I wasn't scared at all.  (When you're "in" something, the fear seems to disappear.  I never thought I could "shoot-up" his morphine, but the hospice people taught me how and I just did it.  Just did it, even when there was very little skin left (IM injections).

I do hope this is helpful in some way.

Julie O'

Posted 11/22/2009 8:32 PM (GMT 0)
I view fear of death as a great impetus to live your life to the fullest. Since there is so little we can truly know about death, it is an unknown, and we tend to fear unknowns. There is nothing wrong with those impulses, as long as they do not drive you into hiding.

Be afraid not of dying, but rather of not allowing yourself to live. :)
Posted 11/22/2009 10:19 PM (GMT 0)
Frank.
You have nothing to fear whether you believe in the afterlife or not. You see you already experienced nothingness before you were conceived or born. For your belief death will feel to you the same as before you were born...nothing
You made it through once; I think you'll make it through again just fine.

Post Edited (Burli) : 11/22/2009 4:23:42 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/22/2009 11:21 PM (GMT 0)
I compare religion to poilitics...if you want to believe in the afterlife then start reading things which support that thought. There are many scientific evidences which support the possibility and concept of God. If I read supporting information about why one political party is better and hung around folks that reinforce those beliefs then I'll certainly be inclined to think as they do.

If you spend your time around athiests or agnostics, reading books that support that position, you will most certainly remain what you are. If you wish to believe in the afterlife and don't want faith to be the only reason it exsists then start reading books about religious evidences (from a scientific perspective). This information is out there.

I would reccomend folks don't read the book you suggested. It's only going to make them think more about those things and provide more odd thought to stew about. I can't imagine why someone would want to reinforce thoughts that scare them unless they enjoy living in fear.

When you read something, experience something or hear something your thoughts are forever changed. Why would you want to put in your mind things which may cause a fear or support a fear your already have?

There's something to be said for that happy old lady down the street; the one people think is ignorant. She is, however, at peace in her mind because she always reads and talks of nice things like bluebirds and her flowers. Get a book about birdwatching, and take up a habit like that which occupies your mind with happy thoughts. Read healthy subjects.

Post Edited (Burli) : 11/22/2009 4:30:48 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/23/2009 12:45 AM (GMT 0)
Hmm. I appreciate all the messages with a lot of positive feeling and good intentions. Still, I guess I have to clarify some things. Please no one take anything personally.

Some people advise that you shouldn't be afraid. One reason is that it interferes with one's enjoyment of life. I agree. Others have advised, here and elsewhere, that we are nothing before we were born, so why should it bother you that you will be nothing again? I have trouble understanding this. Example: my son was nothing before he was born, but if I knew he were to become nothing tomorrow, I would be extremely upset. So why wouldn't I be bothered my my own impending fate?

I do agree, don't read Barnes if you don't want to dwell on a sort of negative (although humorous) take on death. But one reason some people might want to read him is to get a better understanding of people like myself. My therapist says that most people have something in the mind, which you can think of like a curtain, which keeps us from facing death most of the time. For some reason, I seem to have a weak curtain. I wonder if it's like some kind of brain damage--you get hit in the wrong part of the brain, and you wind up with a particular belief about death. (I wonder if Daniel Amen knows about this? If so, I'm sure he'd say it was treatable. And it probably is; I just need to find the right treatment. )

I wonder how many people are like me, but you never hear about them. In my personal experience, death is a taboo subject. I've never come across anyone who voiced a similar situation as myself. But then I see Barnes, and I think, there must be a lot of us, here this fellow has written a reasonably popular book! And here is Cyrano, who at least seems to have a fairly similar point of view. Finally people are recognizing and talking about this poitn of view. So I very much appreciate the conversation going on here.

Frank
Posted 11/23/2009 1:44 AM (GMT 0)
What I meant about before you were born was...
Try to remember what is was like before you were born. You cannot because you were nothing. You will, because you don't believe in afterlife, become nothing after you die.
Now that's really as far as the logic can go and how someone can write a whole book on it is beyond me. I know I will not read it because what good could possibly come out of it for me?

So really you have to accept the fact that you become nothing and then get on to the next topic. To use any more brain power on it is a waste of your time. Someone says, "Frank, ever thought what happens to us when we die?"...and you say, "Why yes John, I have thought a lot about it and I've come to the conclusion that we turn in to nothing, kinda like before we were born."...change subjects..."Hey John, what about those Yankees last night?"

Post Edited (Burli) : 11/22/2009 7:28:49 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/23/2009 1:54 AM (GMT 0)
Burli - Are you saying that Mr. FL, by thinking about death and afterlife possibilities, is creating his own fear and that if he would instead think happy thoughts about healthy subjects he would no longer fear death?

Rose
Posted 11/23/2009 2:22 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, Willowrose. Well stated. Thanks.

I tried to engage my dad several years ago in a topic (similar to this) in which there would be no conclusion...no figured it out so to say. He would not engage as he saw the best it could do was not to benefit him and it risked doing harm.

Certainly there are far more educational reads at the library or bookstore than death...unless you want to become a taxidermist or mortition or forensics investigator...you still wouldn't read this book for those careers.

Post Edited (Burli) : 11/22/2009 7:26:50 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/23/2009 2:36 AM (GMT 0)
Burli,

A person's position on death can affect how they live their life. I don't think death should be an ancillary concern that should not be discussed, at least from a philosophical perspective.

-Cyrano
Posted 11/23/2009 2:36 AM (GMT 0)

And since I said these things a little strong let me add that I would rather have Frank flying my airplane then someone who's not afraid of dying. Considering this reason alone, Frank is more trusted with my life in his hands then others I don't know. Being afraid to die is thus a natural necessity for the success of a society.

 

Posted 11/23/2009 3:39 AM (GMT 0)
Burli,

Although your approach works for you, it just doesn't for me. Or people like me, and I have a feeling there are many of us. This is the Anxiety Forum, right? Is the advice "Don't worry, just think about something else" really going to work? Maybe for some, but not for a lot of others, who happen to need more help. Maybe some of us need to understand our anxiety better in order to find a solution.

Frank

I'm not a pilot, but otherwise thanks for the compliment.
Posted 11/23/2009 4:53 AM (GMT 0)
Good Evening,

I would like to ask each of you if your fear of death and the unknown is causing you to feel like you're worrying too much, and is it interfering with your work, relationships or other parts of your life ? If it is not then perhaps we have strayed off topic here and this is turning into a debate of a controversial subject ?

This topic may be disturbing to some people.

Respectfully,

Kitt
Posted 11/23/2009 4:54 AM (GMT 0)
we have nothing to fear but fear itself
Posted 11/23/2009 7:45 AM (GMT 0)

Good point Kitt. If it doesn't interefere with his life then it's not a problem worth addressing.

 

Cyrano,

Frank is agnostic (from what I can tell). His position on death is therefore predetermined. He can thus ignore any further discussion and move one. There is nothing else to learn once you've made up your mind that after you die you become nothing.

 

Frank,

Focus on life and reading about positive, good things. Increase your time in pleasant activities. This topic is over for you so, yes, just move on and stop thinking about it because you won't change the conclusion unless you change your beliefs.

 

 


Post Edited (Burli) : 11/23/2009 7:40:46 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/23/2009 1:05 PM (GMT 0)
Julie...I had a similar experience when my mom was dying.  She was in her hospital bed and had hardly moved for three days...except for opening her eyes once in awhile to see if I was there.  I crawled into bed with her and slept next to her during her last week.  At one point the doctor came in and said "This is harder on you than it is her."  He left the room, my mom sat up and started to massage my back.  This is a woman who was so weak she could not even turn her head.  I have fibromyalgia and she would often rub my shoulders when I was in pain.   Anyway, she did this for about ten minutes...laid back down and died shortly thereafter.  I will never forget that incident and will always perceive it as the last loving act she did for me...how she was able to do it is mystifying.

Death is the ultimate loss of control.  During my years of suffering with anxiety, I have always feared this...loss of control.  I'm an 'old broad' now...LOL...and have worked hard and long on dealing with this issue.

For me, this thread is both scary and enlightening.  There was a time in my life when I wouldn't even have opened a post like this.  Progress?  Don't know.

Donna

Posted 11/23/2009 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
Donna,

What a beautiful memory of your beloved mother's last moment's - I was quite moved reading this story of deep love.  Wow!  Thank you so much for sharing that.  Totally!

Julie O'

Posted 11/23/2009 4:36 PM (GMT 0)
Mr. FL,

 

I did some research awhile back (just a little 'cause I'm not a studier) about the "Amygdala" part o the brain which is the "fight-or-flight" (fear) part of the brain which is normally strongly connected to the "Hypothalmus" part of the brain (reasoning part).  I read in parts where the connection between the two can actually become disconnected (I can't remember how, but I believe chronic worries or other health reasons, really don't remember), but if your brain is functioning mainly from the Amygdala, this could be causing your constant fear.

 

I don't know, something to research on - I'm guessing ANYbody is better at studying than I am - lol.

 

I hope this helps - it sure helps me!  I learned a lot about different parts of the brain and their jobs. 

In fact, I brought up the question if one can be "living in the Amygdala" to the bad Psychiatrist long ago and he just looked at me very puzzled.

 

It's like the Medulla-Oblongada is at the bottom part of the brain (I believe right above the brain stem) that controls automatic things like breathing, blood pumping, heart beating, etc.

 

It's really interesting to read AND it's scientific (even though I am working very hard now to hold onto my faith in my beliefs which I wouldn't dare bring up here unless asked - not for reasons of shame, I feel honored to have a loving God that takes mercy on my when I focus on Him, just that it causes a lot of different conversations which I'm not sure is what you're looking for). 

 

I also believe that if it's a disturbing subject to some where it is not to others - to those that it is disturbing to, they are able to easily to disconnect to this forum.  I don't see any rules that have been broken by anything that has been written here.

 

Life can be disturbing and I think that's what these forums are all about - a place we can freely speak (write) without fear of being banned about our fears.  If we can't come here to talk about our fears 'n stuff, then where do we go? PLEASE RE READ RULES ESPECIALLY 4 AND 14.......this has to stop.........lyn

 

I think I may just go take off my other posting now, because it may be disturbing to others.  I fear that intensely now.

 

Anyways, FL, I hope you are able to come to peace with this fear.  Some religion (I can't remember which) says to embrace the darkness, become close to it and then the fear goes away.  (That TOTALLY is not verbatim, by the way.  My mind is very muddled today (and everyday).  Remember, Amygdala and Hypothalmus (it might be Hyperthalmus, can't remember).


Julie O'


Post Edited By Moderator (Howlyncat) : 11/23/2009 11:14:35 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/23/2009 5:01 PM (GMT 0)
Julie,

I would ask if you question my posts that you email me. My email is wide open.


I did not say I was closing the topic but I did ask "

I would like to ask each of you if your fear of death and the unknown is causing you to feel like you're worrying too much, and is it interfering with your work, relationships or other parts of your life ? If it is not then perhaps we have strayed off topic here and this is turning into a debate of a controversial subject ? "

If you fear death and it is causing you anxiety then yes it is very appropriate. If you want to debate life after death with others and discuss articles then your off topic which is supporting people with anxieties that intefere with their activities of daily living.

If you do not like the way I moderate you are welcome to let Administration know.

At this point I have not deleted anything accept emails posted in the open forum.............see rules.

If you are looking for a forum to discuss death and life after death you might try this one:



http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16286



Kitt
Posted 11/23/2009 5:08 PM (GMT 0)
Just a word of caution let us not get invested in something we neither prove or disprove, because this subject can be "triggering" for some. Frankly this is so individual it belonging more in the realm of personal interpretation.

Mr. Fl,
Do you really think there is an answer to that question that would be satisfactory to you?
It is not necessary that there is a veil for some of us, we just have a different perspectives.
I am not sure if it is something that can be based in logic. I will leave that to undergrad philo students.
Take it easy,
Navy
Posted 11/23/2009 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
I'm sadly surprised, Kitt, you used to like me and respond to me, and you're

so different now, just like everybody else in my life.  I hate this life!  I hate it!

So as not to argue as I am unable to do so in my condition right now,

Just let me say that you misquoted me.

Posted 11/23/2009 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
I won't come back on anymore. This was the only place I could come.
I am so, so sad right now and sick and need help.

I love you all.

Julie o'
Posted 11/23/2009 5:20 PM (GMT 0)
Please understand that Kitt is responding to complains about this conversation triggering others PTSD. It is not anyone's posts, it is the conversation in general. We are here to protect people and frankly that is what we are going to do. We do not want to hurt people here and I think that line has been crossed. If you have questions please email me at [email protected].

This is a support forum, not a debate forum. 

There rules about conduct towards one another, we are all ill here (even the moderators), and we have to be careful of not attacking one another.
So I am going to request that there be no more posts to subject.
They will be deleted.
Please take good care of one another.
Navy

P.S.  I strongly suggest that if you have a problem about how someone moderates then you need to take it privately, because it comes off as at the very least impolite, and if that person is ill/vernerable I am sure one can see how it can be interpreted as attacking.

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