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Must we forgive to move forward?

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Posted 6/22/2014 6:50 PM (GMT 0)
I am not sure if this is an addendum to my post about sleeping with anxiety (I never thought I could have panic attacks in my dreams and wake up with them!...I'm accustomed, but not remotely comfortable with, the morning anxiety so many of us experience....but incorporating them into my morning dreams coupled with these past days of insomnia are taking a toll on me).

Soooo, anyhoo,.....do you think it's "necessary" to forgive a parent who has deeply wounded us (there's more to our history, much more)....?






M.
Posted 6/22/2014 7:24 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Merrida

I think it is important to be able to forgive a parent because if you don't the situation will not get any better for you. I don't know your full story but I can relate as my childhood was not the best and I had a lot of resentment against my parents for various things that happened to me in childhood which I feel caused all my problems. It has only been recently within the last couple of years that I have been able to forgive and have found that has made me feel a lot better about things.

Hibee
Posted 6/22/2014 8:50 PM (GMT 0)
YES.

But know this:

We forgive to heal OURSELVES

It's not an admission of approval by/for the person we seek to forgive and what they did, but taking control, showing strength and letting go of the toxic negativity WE carry when we do not forgive. . If this makes sense.

Big hugs...
Posted 6/22/2014 9:02 PM (GMT 0)
At this moment, I can't fathom forgiving her. Ever.

At this moment, the best I can see myself doing is trying to just move forward, and my desire is for apathy to replace anger.

In all of my years, I've never discussed what I've been through with my "mother" (or why I refer to her in that manner),...not even in therapy. Ever. Only my Mother in Law is aware of the nature. Not even my Husband.

To forgive I feel like it's allowing. And I want control. Seems like the only way for me to feel in control is to hold onto this resentment and anger.

The only good thing that has come from our unsettling past (well evidently it was only ME who's been bothered by this),...is that I'm crystal clear on what I do NOT want to be, not ever.... I am clear on how I want to treat others and what I'll never subject anyone else to.

When we were on speaking terms, I told her to her face that my biggest fear was that I would turn out just like her, and I wouldn't want that. (And that was well over 20 years ago....and that hasn't passed).

I'm really struggling here.

Her ex and his wife feel I am "playing the cancer card" as an excuse. Mind you, they are unaware of many dynamics from my childhood or even adulthood, and they (my "mother" included) remain unaware of,...and uninterested in,....anything I've been through.

Just got back from the pharmacy, picked up a rx, as my migraines have picked back up along with the insomnia. I think it's all connected.

I'm not sure I want to forgive and maybe I'm looking for justification so that I have backing in my NOT wanting to???

Just tossing ideas out. This is still pretty raw....








M.
Posted 6/22/2014 9:38 PM (GMT 0)
Merrida:

The first time I heard that we must forgive those who hurt us, it stunned me. It didn't make sense. It took me a while to fully "get" it, and I read a LOT of articles about it to understand WHY I should forgive someone who hurt me? That didn't make sense and it felt like I was forgiving them and being weak and allowing them to win....

But I learned:

When we hang on to anger, resentment, even apathy, WE are the one's poisoned. That person is never hurt by our anger/resentment/hurt.

When we dislike/hate or have anger/hurt resentment, we bind ourselves more tightly to that person than if we were chained to them.

When we forgive them, we let go of that binding anger/resentment etc.

It's not something we can do easily, and it's harder if we still interact with them.

BUT we take away their power to hurt us by doing so!!!

Let me say that again:

We take away, we remove THEIR power to hurt US, by doing so.

When we let go, we cut those ties that bind us to them.


But, if you are not ready, that's OK too. But try exploring the idea. It took me a long time to understand it too.

Hugs again my Dear...


Edit to add one thought that helped me:

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.

This stayed with me a looong time, and helped me to understand forgiveness.
:)

Post Edited (My Anxiety Life) : 6/22/2014 4:32:36 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/23/2014 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
What a hard question to answer. It's true that the angst we suffer when we don't forgive someone who is considered a "loved one" by social standards is poisonous to our souls...I still believe that some of these "loved ones" are just plain poisonous.

I have someone in my life like this. I have "forgiven" him but I choose not to include him in my life going forward. The past is the past-so be it...but I have divorced him from my future. As long as he or others do not try to force him into my life I do just fine. He is "dead to me".

I don't think it's healthy to include these types of people in our lives- I don't care who they are.

I don't wish him ill or harm- I just wish that he never contacts me again.

Please keep your own well being as your number one focus. They don't acknowledge your cancer fight? So be it- but don't acknowledge whatever gripe they have with you. YOU are more important than them.
I wish you peace & health.
Posted 6/23/2014 3:15 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you all, again and again. This has stuck in my craw most recently. It isn't just about forgiving past transgressions. It's kept alive by this law suit.

And an interesting dilemma, my Husband told me he is ashamed of me! For the first time (and he admits it, it's the first time ever!)...for not being able to let go of issues regarding my "mother." Regardless of what they are. He does not know them all. To him, he doesn't need to. The past is just that,...the past.

I am a happy adult in an excellent marriage with a wonderful man. Why cling to anger over her?

I also learned a long time ago about indifference, but it had to do with child rearing. The lesson is as follows: Children would rather be praised than punished, they'd rather be punished than ignored.

Well, that doesn't change as we get older.

Hubby's aware of some of the oddities so bear with me while I share just a few, okay? I consider you my family and feel safe enough to do so.

These are the things I never kept from my Husband.



My "mother's" ex-husband to which I refer? He was my boyfriend....until I came home from an Ozzy concert to find them in bed together.

She picked me up from work one day to tell me they were getting married the following day (that's how I found out).

They then moved to Vero Beach, Florida, and she cut contact with me all together.



So as we let that kind of sink in, and as I say, there are many more issues, including what she did to me as a child until the age of 10 (the term I've never said out loud except to one person, my MIL,...and only then it was because she asked me,....as a teacher, apparently she noticed my behaviour displayed that?)

This gets complicated...

But again, from my Husband's perspective. Regardless....it's in the past. Look how far I've come. Look where I am now.

He reminds me she won't be on this Earth forever, and when I responded that I don't think I really care, THAT is when he expressed how ashamed he felt of me. He was physically abused by his father (until he got old enough and big enough to stand up for himself), and he said to me, "I don't even say things like that about MY father, and you know how I feel!" Yes, yes I do. Very well.

I understand, I really do, about letting go. And as an adult, there is absolutely no logical reason for me to dredge this junk up....

So why am I doing this? Or better yet, who cares why,...the point is to let it go. And I haven't been able to. Yes, I'm allowing her to consume my thoughts and I feel sick to my stomach with it.

Sorry to ramble you guys. I appreciate every single one of you have taken the time to share your thoughts with me....







M.
Posted 6/23/2014 3:47 PM (GMT 0)
Your Mother has not only been abusive, but intrusive and wholly and TOTALLY improper in her behavior with you. I am so sorry you had to deal with this, and with the lawsuit, you can't shrug her off. She seems to continue to delight in trying to make your life miserable.

This is a travesty you do NOT deserve.

You already know, your dear husbands inability to understand your feelings is because he simply handles his differently. He seems unable to see a different point of view, and he may never fully understand one's need to approach their own situation they way that is best for THEM (you). Men are wonderful beings, but their approach to dealing with problems tends to be a bit more "simple". Or... Different.

We women are not wired the same. There must be something in him that cannot fathom not having compassion for a parent, even an abusive one. That's OK, it's his perception, he will have differences in his thoughts and actions than you. That's what a relationship is about, two DIFFERENT people, and I don't think he loves nor cares for you less, he's just unable to understand...

Perhaps later you can discuss his shame issue and let him know it hurt your feelings, and ask him to understand you would like to have compassion for your Mom like he does his Dad, but cannot at this time...

We do not have to love nor forget the pain caused to us. We can understand our parent is a flawed person with their own deep psychological issues and try to let go by forgiving to save ourselves by NOT carrying the anger inside....

We also can choose (to the best of our ability) to NOT allow them in our lives. Your Mother sounds mentally sadistic from what you have shared. Was she abused by her mother or father? You know that abuse is often carried down generations (but you have stopped that cycle yourself which is a great sign of maturity).

Your reason for dredging this up, is if she is forcing herself and her ill will on you in the face of a silly lawsuit, then she has found a way to get to you once again. It's understandable you are upset!

The least amount of contact the better, and after this issue is resolved, hopefully you can put thoughts of her to the back of your mind.

This is a difficult time and your Mom has you backed into a corner, forced to deal with her. You are allowed to be upset, terribly upset. It WILL pass. One thing I learned about terrible situations with parents: Things eventually change, nothing remains the same, one day, she will pass away... And if that is the only way to be free of her, then that is ok to feel relief if you so desire when that happens.

We are thinking of you. Hugs....
Posted 6/23/2014 3:59 PM (GMT 0)
I don't know the answer about forgiving others...My problem is forgiving *myself* for struggling, as you have, Merrida, to get past the past.

It's commonly pushed, in therapy sessions, on pop-psych talk shows, self-help books, that we need to "let go" of the past and "move on." Ok. I totally get the idea of it being healthy to separate ourselves from the experiences/cycles we've been involved in order to give ourselves a chance to heal.

I agree, but I've come to the conclusion that this moving on doesn't look the same for everyone. Some people can communicate with family and find resolution (or at least some semblance of peace), some people can have guarded but rewarding relationships with family, and some need to separate completely from family members (and probably countless other iterations I can't think of!).

So, what may have worked for your husband might not work for you. His past is not your past. His self/soul is not your self/soul. I'm sure he loves you dearly and wants the best for you, but he is not you; he hasn't lived your life!

The argument of she "won't be on this earth forever" is one I've heard and struggled with, myself, and am still working out what I want to do about it (with both parents). All I can say is that biology does not, in the end, determine "family," in my opinion. Would the people who remind us of abusive people's mortality do this if the person was not related to us by blood? Would it be ok to keep a friend who accuses you of "pulling the cancer card?" I don't necessarily think so.

I also totally get the frustration of feeling like you're an adult and why can't you just let it go? Maybe because you're human and don't want to be around a wounding force, especially when you're trying to heal? Maybe because dealing with cancer is enough and you're not really up for the mental gymnastics required to handle your family's sick dynamics?

Logic doesn't always figure in when we're dealing with such primal forces. We're not in sit coms, where every problem, no matter how tangled and grim, can get wrapped up in 30 minutes. It's wonderful that some people are able to move past their damaging childhoods (and adulthoods!) in socially acceptable/palatable ways.

For the rest of us, it might be a little "ugly," a little thorny, and a very unclear path, and all we can do is try to tune in to our own intuition, that voice we all hear sometimes that is very strong and lets us know what's best for us at any given time. This is subject to change, as everything is.

Yikes, I ramble so much when really my point is that the process of healing doesn't always have a "nice" story to go with it. My hope for myself, right now, is that I end up with nasty scars instead of open wounds (it's not like I'm going to forget the past!), and my path there might be very uncomfortable for me and others, but if I'm going forward with the best of intentions and no desire to do harm, then I'm doing my best. Hopefully, what "my best" is will evolve and grow as I do...

Sorry for the novel; this subject clearly has hit many nerves in me! Best wishes to all on this thread who are dealing with these complex situations.
Posted 6/23/2014 6:29 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Merrida,
First I just want to say "I'm sorry" for what you went...and are going through...I wish I were there to hug you when telling you that.
Just wanted to share this...because its a slightly different 'take' on forgiveness, at least as we think of it.
One of my 'teachers' said once that this business of forgiveness is not always 'done right.' To be under pressure that we need to forgive makes things worse... He said to put yourself in a position of 'I forgive you' in some ways is making you sound falsely superior, like you are the one that 'needs' to do this. A lot of this is religious influence and like you will be 'punished' if you DON'T forgive... I am not meaning to be confrontational with other people's belief systems, but there are MANY 'right' ways of looking at things. Abe said what is necessary for you to do is to 1) recognize that YES, it did happen, 2) it is now over, and 3) simply be WILLING to let it go...
Sometimes this forgiving business should be more forthright... we want to say "you should comer to ME...begging for forgiveness for what you did to me" ... and that is the 'hook'... not wanting to realize this most likely will never happen... So the best we can do for ourselves is simply say: "Universe, Spirit, (whatever) I am WILLING to let this go." If at first you need to say "I am truly WANTING to be willing to let this go" than that is fine, too. This has helped me, releasing me from having to get on my 'throne' and doing the forgiving. wink Just be easy on yourself. You are a great person and its always NOW...Take care.
Posted 6/24/2014 3:03 AM (GMT 0)
Dear Little Sister, I haven't been here for a while but this is so
painful to read, and yes I have delt with a situation such as this
not turning loose.
Both my Daughters were molested by a male family member, I
trusted him and yes we were friends, my girls didn't tell me until
20 years after the fact, the problem tho was not me, it was them
both suffered a kaleidoscope of symptoms from this, we were
talking one day and it came up again, this is what I told them.
I know and believe this was terrible for you to endure and it has
caused you both many problems, what would you say if I asked
you to forgive this man. "lots of emotion"
Every time you revisit this and hold anger in your heart, you are
allowing the abuse to happen again, only this time you are the
one allowing it to happen!
It didn't go away over night but in time they both told me they
had done as I asked. "When he was dying I knelt down at the
foot of his bed and asked that his sins be forgiven and that God
would accept him." I will be praying for you kid, and you will
get better. Peace and Love
Larry ***

Post Edited (lgm1942) : 6/23/2014 9:06:57 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/24/2014 3:56 AM (GMT 0)
Merrida-

No, I don't think you have to forgive to move forward. I will never, ever, ever forgive my mom.

I am just now able to move on 24 years later because the void her absence and choices she made that affected me are now filled with love and support from others.

Also I wanted to share this. You are giving her all the power and control. I know because my counselor pointed it out to me. I was consumed with thoughts about her and her actions and trying to analyze them. Promise me, it's a waste of time. Rational people such as ourselves will never understand irrational behavior.

It's easy for me to say all these things but it took me 24 years to get here.

Good luck in your journey!
Michele
Posted 6/24/2014 4:41 AM (GMT 0)
I say this with no judgment in heart so please understand that& know that I come from this& knowing the pain, of what's holding onto past hurts and anger can do to us. For one it bring sickness to us the stress, hurt, anger grow off of the emotions of feeling as if we've been wrong and in most cases we've and that with no doubt is okay, but to forgive isn't giving away power in fact it is gaining power. For when we don't forgive and hold on to resentment we are allowing the person(s) to hold and keep power over us, so forgiving doesn't mean we forget are should but it in fact says we win and can no longer be defeated by the pain others caused us. And we will not allow old hurt& pain be a road block in our good fortune, forgive those who hurt us so that He may forgive us. Wishing you the best of luck and courage to conquer, for I speak from exsperience only difference is it was my father every girl needs her father and I hated mine for not being there and learned that my hate was only covered up love and the need and want to understand.

Post Edited (SoulNHealing) : 6/23/2014 10:47:34 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/24/2014 7:37 AM (GMT 0)
Woke up, yet again, still can't sleep through the night....and I wanted to check on this.

You guys are wonderful, and after reading so many different posts by so many different people with various perspectives, I'm slowly seeing how to change my perspective and why.

I'm not saying it's a done deal. Hasn't even begun. But if even a modicum of anger can slip away and be chipped at, I call that success. Maybe some of this is sinking in because you guys are letting me talk about it? Because it's safe to say 'stuff' here that I've stuffed down and hidden? Even the 'stuff' I convinced myself I "shouldn't" still be angry about?

I buried a lot of my feelings or translated them into dubious behaviour as a young adult growing up, making some poor choices that, as Michele pointed out, I think I was trying to fill that void wanting to be loved, but thinking it was going to take something else to fill it.

I found it now with changes within myself and how I am as a person as an adult, having a healthy relationship, learning to communicate.

I'm so amazed that at middle age I'm reopening wounds from childhood trauma. Granted if that law suit didn't pop up,....I think I was actually doing pretty well. 'Stuff' just happens every so often so I'm not permitted to 'not think' of her or where I'm 'reminded' of her. Whether directly or through her ex-husband.

Since her 2 hour visit after she heard I had cancer, we haven't spoken, texted, email, called, nothing......I've tried (yes, maybe because a part of me still cares and I wish I didn't.....because every time I've trusted her, she has lied to my face, kept things from me, or abandoned me). This is her M.O. So why do I hold out faith.

That's why, dear friends, I wish for apathy. Hubby has that for his father,...never wishes him harm, never says a peep, there's no impact. I want that. I think I want that. At least that's better than this.

If I didn't have the screwy past I had, I wouldn't be who I am, right? But the God's honest truth is if it weren't for my Husband, I'd still BE on that screwy path. My entire life took a 180 since the day we very first met.....and I haven't stepped back since.

I never would have thought a forum would be a source of me finding a path to peace, so thank you everyone for helping me work through this bull-pucky. It reaffirms what I defended when I first joined, that the people here interact with me more like family than my blood family ever has or ever does.

I'm going to try and get back to sleep....and honest guys, get back to being IN this forum I love and cherish and adore sooooo much. Been wrapped up in this debacle for a week and can't clear my head....

Love you all.








M.
Posted 6/24/2014 8:49 AM (GMT 0)
i send you warm healing thoughts merrida. the posts are too big for me to read with my vision, just wanted you to know i am thinking of you.
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